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The Universe had a beginning

Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/10/2015 3:55:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Define "beginning" first and the problem becomes apparent if you know a little cosmology.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 3:58:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:55:00 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Define "beginning" first and the problem becomes apparent if you know a little cosmology.

The "beginning" was whenever "work" (that is, action that uses energy) began. This period presumably began whenever the Universe came into existence, as if it existed prior to this there would be nothing to cause it to begin.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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2/10/2015 4:06:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:58:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:55:00 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Define "beginning" first and the problem becomes apparent if you know a little cosmology.

The "beginning" was whenever "work" (that is, action that uses energy) began.

Began is just a euphemism for "begin", which is what I am trying to get you to define.

This period presumably began whenever the Universe came into existence, as if it existed prior to this there would be nothing to cause it to begin.

"Period" presupposes time, so I presume time plays a part in the definition of "beginning" you are using.

I am not doing this to annoy you, but defining "beginning" for the universe is important if you want to draw a comparison to everyday knowledge (such as what does a beginning imply, etc).

For example, if you take WLC's definition, then an existential beginning is basically a point in time in which something exists after, but before it didn't exist.

Which is a fair definition (in my opinion), although to state the universe has such a beginning is dubious, since it makes all sorts of presuppositions of what the universe is, and whether talking about time without the universe is coherent, and whether it makes any sense to talk about "before" without time and without change in entropy (since entropy change gives us our directionality in time, before and after).

So, you have a lot of unanswered questions to get over before making claims about whether the *universe* had a beginning in any coherently defined sense.

Moreover, I see no relation between an end and a beginning, the universe has an end> If it did then it would make headlines in cosmology, since the only "end" the universe is going to have that we have any confidence about is a thermodynamic one, which is a very arbitary definition of "end".

Moreover, eternally evolving universes for example, even if we assume that talking about before the big bang's coherency, have no beginning in any sense of the worse, since the universes perpetually run down but never stopping, since there is no "end state" to fall into.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:11:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:06:44 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:58:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:55:00 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Define "beginning" first and the problem becomes apparent if you know a little cosmology.

The "beginning" was whenever "work" (that is, action that uses energy) began.

Began is just a euphemism for "begin", which is what I am trying to get you to define.

This period presumably began whenever the Universe came into existence, as if it existed prior to this there would be nothing to cause it to begin.

"Period" presupposes time, so I presume time plays a part in the definition of "beginning" you are using.

I am not doing this to annoy you, but defining "beginning" for the universe is important if you want to draw a comparison to everyday knowledge (such as what does a beginning imply, etc).

For example, if you take WLC's definition, then an existential beginning is basically a point in time in which something exists after, but before it didn't exist.

Which is a fair definition (in my opinion), although to state the universe has such a beginning is dubious, since it makes all sorts of presuppositions of what the universe is, and whether talking about time without the universe is coherent, and whether it makes any sense to talk about "before" without time and without change in entropy (since entropy change gives us our directionality in time, before and after).

So, you have a lot of unanswered questions to get over before making claims about whether the *universe* had a beginning in any coherently defined sense.

Moreover, I see no relation between an end and a beginning, the universe has an end> If it did then it would make headlines in cosmology, since the only "end" the universe is going to have that we have any confidence about is a thermodynamic one, which is a very arbitary definition of "end".

Moreover, eternally evolving universes for example, even if we assume that talking about before the big bang's coherency, have no beginning in any sense of the worse, since the universes perpetually run down but never stopping, since there is no "end state" to fall into.

Today, time obviously exists, and it's unreasonable to assume that it did not likewise exist in the past. If there is time, there's either a beginning or infinity, but not some wishy-washy "there's no beginning because there's no time".
Beginning, by the way, means the start of existence.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 4:14:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?

Awareness amounts to self-recognition, so yes.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:15:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:14:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?

Awareness amounts to self-recognition, so yes.

So the Universe has a mind?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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2/10/2015 4:16:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:15:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:14:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?

Awareness amounts to self-recognition, so yes.

So the Universe has a mind?

More accurately, the universe is a mind...
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,086
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2/10/2015 4:17:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:16:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:15:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:14:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?

Awareness amounts to self-recognition, so yes.

So the Universe has a mind?

More accurately, the universe is a mind...

So everything is just thoughts?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Envisage
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2/10/2015 4:18:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:11:40 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:06:44 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:58:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:55:00 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Define "beginning" first and the problem becomes apparent if you know a little cosmology.

The "beginning" was whenever "work" (that is, action that uses energy) began.

Began is just a euphemism for "begin", which is what I am trying to get you to define.

This period presumably began whenever the Universe came into existence, as if it existed prior to this there would be nothing to cause it to begin.

"Period" presupposes time, so I presume time plays a part in the definition of "beginning" you are using.

I am not doing this to annoy you, but defining "beginning" for the universe is important if you want to draw a comparison to everyday knowledge (such as what does a beginning imply, etc).

For example, if you take WLC's definition, then an existential beginning is basically a point in time in which something exists after, but before it didn't exist.

Which is a fair definition (in my opinion), although to state the universe has such a beginning is dubious, since it makes all sorts of presuppositions of what the universe is, and whether talking about time without the universe is coherent, and whether it makes any sense to talk about "before" without time and without change in entropy (since entropy change gives us our directionality in time, before and after).

So, you have a lot of unanswered questions to get over before making claims about whether the *universe* had a beginning in any coherently defined sense.

Moreover, I see no relation between an end and a beginning, the universe has an end> If it did then it would make headlines in cosmology, since the only "end" the universe is going to have that we have any confidence about is a thermodynamic one, which is a very arbitary definition of "end".

Moreover, eternally evolving universes for example, even if we assume that talking about before the big bang's coherency, have no beginning in any sense of the worse, since the universes perpetually run down but never stopping, since there is no "end state" to fall into.

Today, time obviously exists, and it's unreasonable to assume that it did not likewise exist in the past.

"Time doesn't exist in the past" is an incoherent statement, since "past" again presupposes time.

If there is time, there's either a beginning or infinity, but not some wishy-washy "there's no beginning because there's no time".

General Relativity makes those presuppositions dubious, since time is no longer fundemental, but the speed of light is. it's very easy to go from that to four-dimensionalism, where the universe IS the set of three dimensions and one of time, thus time doesn't "exist" without the universe, and the universe doesn't exist without time.

Thus, the universe begin to exist anymore than the first inch of a ruler "begins" that ruler to exist, since the past present and future in four dimensionalism are all equally real, and the passing of time is only a subjective experience.

The de wheeler equation, which is one way of uniting quantum mechanics and relativity, eliminates time from the equation, and postulates a completely static universe. There is no genuine "change" as every moment in time exists concurrently. I am not stating that it's necessarily true, only that making statements about the universe having a beginning IN time is dubious. Especially when we consider that it's becoming more and more aparent quantum gravity is important in the big bang of our universe, of which the quantisation of space and time is going to make big changes.

Beginning, by the way, means the start of existence.

Sure, and by "start" you are presupposing time, once again.
dylancatlow
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2/10/2015 4:21:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 4:17:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:16:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:15:34 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:14:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:13:09 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:11:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:09:19 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:04:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:02:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 4:01:32 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:54:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:50:44 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

By any reasonable definition, the universe could not have had a beginning. Since there is no real time scale external to the universe, there is no extrinsic point in time at which the universe could have been created.

I suppose it depends on how you define Universe. For instance, would a deity be external to the Universe, or would a deity be part of the Universe?
Anyway...
Yet it is impossible for the Universe to have existed for an infinitely long time in the past, as I have shown.

No, you have not. Your assumption that the universe only consists of deterministic laws is without justification. What's to prevent the universe from possessing a self-determinative mechanism by which it can adjust itself to ever-changing conditions?

Are you suggesting that the laws of reality change?

I'm suggesting that there is nothing in principle which stops the universe from defining itself non-deterministically over time.

Define "define itself".

Determine its structure. Obviously, this would imply that the universe possesses a teleological dimension.

So you are saying that the Universe is aware?

Awareness amounts to self-recognition, so yes.

So the Universe has a mind?

More accurately, the universe is a mind...

So everything is just thoughts?

Not exactly. Everything is mental, but since our minds are embedded in the mind of reality, our minds are representations of more general structure that distributes over all lesser minds. So no, you cannot just "create your own reality" using your imagination.
Vox_Veritas
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2/10/2015 4:26:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Dang it. I've reached that point in the conversation where I'm too confused to continue.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Kyle_the_Heretic
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2/10/2015 4:28:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Do you believe the universe encompasses all that exists?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
R0b1Billion
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2/10/2015 5:40:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end.

False. Who told you that nonsense?

Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

Without your initial assumption, the rest fails.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
sadolite
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2/10/2015 6:20:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

I neither agree or disagree. The universe is beyond the human mind's ability to comprehend . Anything that man thinks about the origins of the universe or if it will end is pure speculation.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Illegalcombatant
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2/10/2015 7:23:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/10/2015 3:11:32 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The Universe has an end. Something that has an end must've had a beginning. I mean, whatever natural process gradually kills the Universe would've gone on long enough to succeed long ago if the Universe existed for an infinite period of time in the past.
Also, the Universe would've reached a state of maximum complexity long ago had it existed for an infinite length of time in the past.
Thus, whatever the cause, the Universe at least had a beginning.

If you disagree with this conclusion please state why.

I lean towards a no to the question does the universe have a beginning or more exactly a no to the question did the universe "begin" to exist.

Ask yourself what it means to "begin" to exist ?

I exist, most people would claim that I began to exist, but why ? cause they recognize there was a prior "time" when I did not exist.

In other words X begins to exist if X exists and there was a time prior where X did not exist.

Seeing that most if not all people work on the model that there was no "time" prior to the universe there was no "time" in which the universe did not exist.

Ergo the universe did not begin to exist.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12