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Why Shouldn't We Commit Suicide?

Harper
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3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video: https://www.youtube.com...

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
R0b1Billion
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3/22/2015 7:45:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Suicide is like any other action in that there's no inherent morality associated with it, there is only the intentions behind it to be judged. As far as the action in and of itself, well yeah it's bad because we're losing a person who's probably valuable to many people. The intentions behind suicide are usually bad so suicide is usually immoral; typically the person is feeling angry at the world and wants to go out in one final, selfish, glorious act. Obviously suicide can be good if the intentions are good, like when you jump out in the street to push somebody out of the way of a speeding car or something like that.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
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Harper
Posts: 374
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3/22/2015 8:47:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?
Yes, but as I noted in my original post, illness is but a symptom of death (That's why it's called *terminal* illness.).

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)
I should probably read your euthanasia debate, sounds interesting.

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
That's a very well articulated and succinctly put answer.
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/22/2015 8:59:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 7:45:03 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Suicide is like any other action in that there's no inherent morality associated with it, there is only the intentions behind it to be judged.
Right, as with all actions there is no black and white answer. It all depends on circumstance.

As far as the action in and of itself, well yeah it's bad because we're losing a person who's probably valuable to many people.
And if no one valued that individual? I would say that it's still bad as life is inherently valuable (after all, value itself originated in the living mind to serve the living being).

The intentions behind suicide are usually bad so suicide is usually immoral; typically the person is feeling angry at the world and wants to go out in one final, selfish, glorious act.
I wouldn't call suicide "glorious"-- it's usually seen (and I would happen to agree) as a cowardly act. Whether or not it's selfish is still something I can't say I'm sure of, since to annihilate yourself is clearly an act of self loathing (and possibly the ultimate act of self loathing), but on the other hand it is fulfilling a desire (however self destructive it may be) at the cost of those around you (but even then, you suffered a much greater loss than any of your loved ones that were affected in the end).

Obviously suicide can be good if the intentions are good, like when you jump out in the street to push somebody out of the way of a speeding car or something like that.
I really don't see any reason to kill yourself in such a circumstance. There's no logical reason to value any one life above your own; it may save that other person, but it would also result in you dying, so the net loss is the same whether or not you kill yourself to save them. The only way it would actually pay off is in the slim chance that your actions result in the both of you coming out alive.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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3/22/2015 9:16:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 8:47:58 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?
Yes, but as I noted in my original post, illness is but a symptom of death (That's why it's called *terminal* illness.).

Well, I'm inclined to view illness as a symptom of life, and death a symptom of humanity. (Every illness is not 'terminal')

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)
I should probably read your euthanasia debate, sounds interesting.

Haha, well, I hope your not disappointed!

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
That's a very well articulated and succinctly put answer.

Thank you.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/22/2015 9:29:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 9:16:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 8:47:58 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?
Yes, but as I noted in my original post, illness is but a symptom of death (That's why it's called *terminal* illness.).

Well, I'm inclined to view illness as a symptom of life, and death a symptom of humanity. (Every illness is not 'terminal')
That may be true, though I was working with the specific example you gave me of terminal illness, in which case death is still the main source of suffering. And to address your statement on illness being a symptom of life, one could very well say that death itself is a symptom of life, as nothing that has never lived dies.

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)
I should probably read your euthanasia debate, sounds interesting.

Haha, well, I hope your not disappointed!
I don't think I will be. To tell you the truth, I'm actually on the fence about the issue-- I'm not completely convinced either way. So anything you had to say about it will be of value.


(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
That's a very well articulated and succinctly put answer.

Thank you.
Well, thank you for discussing the topic with me.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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3/22/2015 10:31:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 9:29:10 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 9:16:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 8:47:58 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?
Yes, but as I noted in my original post, illness is but a symptom of death (That's why it's called *terminal* illness.).

Well, I'm inclined to view illness as a symptom of life, and death a symptom of humanity. (Every illness is not 'terminal')
That may be true, though I was working with the specific example you gave me of terminal illness, in which case death is still the main source of suffering. And to address your statement on illness being a symptom of life, one could very well say that death itself is a symptom of life, as nothing that has never lived dies.

Illness can only occur where there is life, and illness does not always result in death so I think it follows to say illness is a manifestation of life. As far as death being a symptom of life, or vice versa, it may be all about perspective, but I am resistant to viewing death simply as the destination of life. I believe we learn to value life more from thoroughly due to death we experience during our lives (deaths of families and friends). Death is to life as darkness is to light - it provides a contrast without which we cannot fully appreciate life.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I guess I am trying to explain this to myself as much as you.

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)
I should probably read your euthanasia debate, sounds interesting.

Haha, well, I hope your not disappointed!
I don't think I will be. To tell you the truth, I'm actually on the fence about the issue-- I'm not completely convinced either way. So anything you had to say about it will be of value.


(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
That's a very well articulated and succinctly put answer.

Thank you.
Well, thank you for discussing the topic with me.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/23/2015 8:41:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 10:31:51 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 9:29:10 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 9:16:15 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 8:47:58 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/22/2015 6:17:02 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

Death is not always feared and avoided. Consider those suffering with terminal illness. Death is release -an end to pain and suffering. Would that not be justice?
Yes, but as I noted in my original post, illness is but a symptom of death (That's why it's called *terminal* illness.).

Well, I'm inclined to view illness as a symptom of life, and death a symptom of humanity. (Every illness is not 'terminal')
That may be true, though I was working with the specific example you gave me of terminal illness, in which case death is still the main source of suffering. And to address your statement on illness being a symptom of life, one could very well say that death itself is a symptom of life, as nothing that has never lived dies.

Illness can only occur where there is life, and illness does not always result in death so I think it follows to say illness is a manifestation of life.
I think it's important to note that while illness may not always result in death, the break down of the body (which is essentially what illness is) only inevitably leads to death. We get sick for the same reason we die: we are not invincible. Death is essentially what happens when the body has been broken down more than it can repair, so you can say that they are essentially two stops at the same road (or better yet, that illness is a "speed boost" on the road to death). They both happen through the same "mechanism", if you catch my drift.

As far as death being a symptom of life, or vice versa, it may be all about perspective, but I am resistant to viewing death simply as the destination of life.
But isn't death really what all life ends in? Meaning, if you "ended up" at a bus stop, wouldn't you call the bus stop your "destination"? Likewise if the "journey" of life ends up in the grave, the grave would therefore be the destination, for all intents and purposes.

I believe we learn to value life more from thoroughly due to death we experience during our lives (deaths of families and friends). Death is to life as darkness is to light - it provides a contrast without which we cannot fully appreciate life.

But couldn't one say that life becomes devalued by death? Meaning, what's the point of experience and potential if it all turns to dust (literally)? I think death may make us think twice about the way we're living but in the end, life's transience only makes the journey less palatable. If death were nonexistent, every other form of suffering could be tolerated since we know that our struggles will not have been in vain, however bad those struggles may be. Going back to the reference on euthanasia, if it weren't for the fact that the patient knew that his/her struggles would end in utter oblivion, would they really have opted for assisted suicide? Of course not. If there was hope for them, if fighting through the disease would have actually yielded some sort of victory over it they would have kept on.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I guess I am trying to explain this to myself as much as you.
Don't be sorry, this website was made for these kinds of conversations anyway.


2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

How would we determine the value of life? I hold experience and potential to be strong criterion for the value of life. There may come a point in my life, when my experience is not likely to increase in any meaningful way and my potential can only bring pain, suffering, and/or death. Life can eventually lose its value, and death may suddenly be more attractive.

BTW, don't misunderstand me I am not advocating suicide, but I can visualize how death can be desired and have value itself. (My euthanasia debate may have strongly influenced my answer here.)
I should probably read your euthanasia debate, sounds interesting.

Haha, well, I hope your not disappointed!
I don't think I will be. To tell you the truth, I'm actually on the fence about the issue-- I'm not completely convinced either way. So anything you had to say about it will be of value.


(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

No, not while we can still trade our potential for meaningful experiences.
That's a very well articulated and succinctly put answer.

Thank you.
Well, thank you for discussing the topic with me.
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/23/2015 9:34:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 8:46:44 AM, Wylted wrote:
Suicide is fine. It is nobody's business if I die.

That's an interesting position to take, I presume that you think there's no reason not to commit suicide? You see, the question was posed to provoke discussion on whether or not we should continue living, or simply if there's any real reason to stay alive.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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3/23/2015 9:48:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

It is usually a permanent solution to temporary problems. It doesn't help the person.
Few people make a cool, rational decision to commit suicide.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/23/2015 9:51:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 9:34:56 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/23/2015 8:46:44 AM, Wylted wrote:
Suicide is fine. It is nobody's business if I die.

That's an interesting position to take, I presume that you think there's no reason not to commit suicide? You see, the question was posed to provoke discussion on whether or not we should continue living, or simply if there's any real reason to stay alive.

There is no reason to stay alive or die. Dying is of equivalent value to living. You'll die at some point anywau and everything will have been in vain. Why postpone the inevitable.
christian.gould97
Posts: 1
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3/24/2015 4:09:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 9:51:01 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/23/2015 9:34:56 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/23/2015 8:46:44 AM, Wylted wrote:
Suicide is fine. It is nobody's business if I die.

That's an interesting position to take, I presume that you think there's no reason not to commit suicide? You see, the question was posed to provoke discussion on whether or not we should continue living, or simply if there's any real reason to stay alive.

There is no reason to stay alive or die. Dying is of equivalent value to living. You'll die at some point anywau and everything will have been in vain. Why postpone the inevitable.

Living things, are the only things, that can have meaning in the universe. Living things in the universe may find meaning in nonliving things, but it is only from the perspective of a living thing, that such meaning can be attributed.

When we are alive, we can die

If we are not alive, than we are not alive, and will continue to be that way until chance will perpetuate life.

Like all living things,, we have the ability to die at any given moment. No living thing is immortal.

All living things are Merely small margins of the universe that are not non-living.

The universe does not exist to non-life, nothing exists to non-life.

non-life is meaningless. Life at least can have meaning, which, if you want, can be reduced to the fact that we are in fact alive.
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/25/2015 7:39:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 9:48:22 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 3/22/2015 3:12:55 PM, Harper wrote:
This is a response to this wonderfully put together video:

I think there are two reasons not to commit suicide (continue living), in addition to the ones brought up in the video:

1. Injustice: The only reason people look for meaning and beauty is because we know, on at least a subconscious level, that meaning and beauty are sparse if not completely absent from our world. Philosophy and art (and thus meaning and beauty) are unnecessary in a perfect world without pain or injustice (Aldous Huxley makes good note of that in his famous novel Brave New World). We simply wouldn't care either way: life is good. But life isn't good, we were thrown into a world of pain and suffering only to be rewarded with total annihilation in the form of death. Death is the greatest injustice of all, the greatest form of suffering and above all there is no meaning to be made from it. It is meaningless suffering. Other forms of suffering would be tolerable if it weren't for the fact that all of the lessons that we learned from that suffering weren't wiped out after we die (because of the sure death of all living things, all of your efforts and triumphs over suffering will be lost). The only reason people want to commit suicide is to get away from the pain and injustice of life, but as I noted, death is the greatest injustice since it is the source of all other great injustices (old age, disease, war, etc. are all but symptoms and consequences of death existing). So committing suicide really only compounds the injustice you've already faced.

2. Value of Life: Value is subjective in that it originates and is only made use of in a subjective (i.e. living) creature. Subjectivity is an inherent property of being alive, and is only found in living things. Value, as with all subjective concepts, in this way belongs to the living, and thus all that is valuable, by definition, is that which makes life easier or possible. This is because value "owes" itself to life, and the concept of subjective ideas like value, justice, and morality evolved/ are only there to serve the living. That makes life the most valuable "thing" in existence, since life is the benchmark that measures the value of all other things and is the origin of value itself. Given that it possesses "ultimate" value, life should always be preserved unless a specific life does more harm to the prospect of life continuing to exist in the long run (the life of a person who seeks to make life more difficult on the large scale has lost its value).

(Sorry if the message isn't very clear (especially in the second paragraph), I was having trouble finding the words to properly explain what I mean.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear your take on the subject: should we just all commit suicide?

It is usually a permanent solution to temporary problems. It doesn't help the person.
Few people make a cool, rational decision to commit suicide.

Right, and the question posed by the video (I think I should have made this a little bit clearer) was if there is a rational reason to commit suicide. In other words: is there any real reason to continue living?
Harper
Posts: 374
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3/25/2015 7:54:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/23/2015 9:51:01 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/23/2015 9:34:56 PM, Harper wrote:
At 3/23/2015 8:46:44 AM, Wylted wrote:
Suicide is fine. It is nobody's business if I die.

That's an interesting position to take, I presume that you think there's no reason not to commit suicide? You see, the question was posed to provoke discussion on whether or not we should continue living, or simply if there's any real reason to stay alive.

There is no reason to stay alive or die. Dying is of equivalent value to living. You'll die at some point anywau and everything will have been in vain. Why postpone the inevitable.

But value itself is a subjective concept that was created in the living mind to serve the living being. Like morality, value is a concept we use as a tool to make life easier. Therefore value is inherently "biased" in favor of life, meaning that it is impossible to divorce the subjective concepts (morality, value, justice, etc.) from the living, since the subjective comes only from the mind of the living (subjective) beings. So I don't think that death is equivalent to life in value, since value was made to help us avoid death (for example, we value the life necessities over modern comforts like electricity in life or death situations as value is essentially a method of subjective reasoning tailored to avoid death and make life easier.).