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B-Time (variant), perception, and free will.

SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/17/2015 9:31:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The standard B-Theory of Time is where there is a past, present, and a future that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

If we instead propose a variation of the B-Theory of Time, interesting things can happen.
In this variation, there are an infinite amount of pasts, presents, and futures that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

Under the classical B-Theory, the universe is like a line and our perception is like a dot on the line.
Under this variation, the universe is like a plane, and our perception is like a dot on the plane.

Now, under either version of the B-Theory of Time, the reality of the universe can only be truly perceived from a noumenal view of it. We, however, only have a phenomenal view of the universe. This actually let's interesting things happen.

When we view this noumenal reality from a phenomenal view, it can appear as if time flows. Furthermore, under the variation of the B-Theory of Time, we can actually have a phenomenal free will.

The reason for being able to have a phenomenal free will is simple, every past, present, and FUTURE exists. We live in a noumenal reality (so there isn't a noumenal free will), but we cannot perceive the noumenal whole, we only perceive a fraction of it. If our phenomenal view was not set on the future it would perceive, then the perception can have the experience of free will.

The variation would also fix time travel paradoxes, make it so low probabilistic chances that occur are not a problem, etc.
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Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/18/2015 12:31:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 9:31:38 AM, SNP1 wrote:
The standard B-Theory of Time is where there is a past, present, and a future that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

If we instead propose a variation of the B-Theory of Time, interesting things can happen.
In this variation, there are an infinite amount of pasts, presents, and futures that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

Under the classical B-Theory, the universe is like a line and our perception is like a dot on the line.
Under this variation, the universe is like a plane, and our perception is like a dot on the plane.

Now, under either version of the B-Theory of Time, the reality of the universe can only be truly perceived from a noumenal view of it. We, however, only have a phenomenal view of the universe. This actually let's interesting things happen.

When we view this noumenal reality from a phenomenal view, it can appear as if time flows. Furthermore, under the variation of the B-Theory of Time, we can actually have a phenomenal free will.

The reason for being able to have a phenomenal free will is simple, every past, present, and FUTURE exists. We live in a noumenal reality (so there isn't a noumenal free will), but we cannot perceive the noumenal whole, we only perceive a fraction of it. If our phenomenal view was not set on the future it would perceive, then the perception can have the experience of free will.

The variation would also fix time travel paradoxes, make it so low probabilistic chances that occur are not a problem, etc.

Free will is the act of choosing. From a dot's perspective the choice is still relevant to the dot. God who sees the whole of the line sees it as a static line.

Hence free will and omniscient coexist. This also leads credence to entropic flow of time.

http://www.newscientist.com...
n7
Posts: 1,360
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4/18/2015 11:22:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not sure. Every possible past, present, future would still all exist and all be laid out. Under a non-compatablist definition (being able to do otherwise) it would still seem like free will wouldn't exist since everything in your future is already there.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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4/18/2015 11:25:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
And since we're beings in time, our choices themselves would also be a part of these timelines. Every choice we make from our birth was already in our timeline and any consequence would already be there.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/18/2015 11:50:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 11:22:37 AM, n7 wrote:
I'm not sure. Every possible past, present, future would still all exist and all be laid out. Under a non-compatablist definition (being able to do otherwise) it would still seem like free will wouldn't exist since everything in your future is already there.

From a noumenal view, you are correct, you do not have free will. From a phenomenal view, you can have an illusion of free will. What this means is that while your real self would be preceived noumenally, you phenomenal view of the universe can "choose" which future to observe (within limits).

From a phenomenal view, you can have free will (it is an illusion, but still). Within the noumenal reality, free will does not exist.
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SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/18/2015 11:54:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 12:31:37 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/17/2015 9:31:38 AM, SNP1 wrote:
The standard B-Theory of Time is where there is a past, present, and a future that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

If we instead propose a variation of the B-Theory of Time, interesting things can happen.
In this variation, there are an infinite amount of pasts, presents, and futures that are all equally real and tensed facts do not exist.

Under the classical B-Theory, the universe is like a line and our perception is like a dot on the line.
Under this variation, the universe is like a plane, and our perception is like a dot on the plane.

Now, under either version of the B-Theory of Time, the reality of the universe can only be truly perceived from a noumenal view of it. We, however, only have a phenomenal view of the universe. This actually let's interesting things happen.

When we view this noumenal reality from a phenomenal view, it can appear as if time flows. Furthermore, under the variation of the B-Theory of Time, we can actually have a phenomenal free will.

The reason for being able to have a phenomenal free will is simple, every past, present, and FUTURE exists. We live in a noumenal reality (so there isn't a noumenal free will), but we cannot perceive the noumenal whole, we only perceive a fraction of it. If our phenomenal view was not set on the future it would perceive, then the perception can have the experience of free will.

The variation would also fix time travel paradoxes, make it so low probabilistic chances that occur are not a problem, etc.

Free will is the act of choosing. From a dot's perspective the choice is still relevant to the dot. God who sees the whole of the line sees it as a static line.

It would still be an ILLUSION of free will because in reality, we are NOT the dot, that is just what we see.

Each entity's real self is the noumenal view of that entity. We, however, only see in the phenomenal view, and our phenomenal experiences can have similar properties of free will without it actually being free will.

Hence free will and omniscient coexist. This also leads credence to entropic flow of time.

There still wouldn't be a flow of time... I do not see how you can get close to that unless you do not understand the metaphysics in what I am discussing..

http://www.newscientist.com...
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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4/18/2015 3:56:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's not clear why this view of time is required for the illusion of free will. Illusions are false impressions of reality, and therefore can be squared with just about anything since they don't have to answer to logic.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/18/2015 6:39:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 3:56:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not clear why this view of time is required for the illusion of free will. Illusions are false impressions of reality, and therefore can be squared with just about anything since they don't have to answer to logic.

If you have the classic view of the B-Theory of Time and realize the universe operates under that model, then there is only one future. You can think certain things seem like choices, but you would know they are not. As Daniel Dennett has said, when one is entirely convinced that there is no free will then they will be unable to act as if there is.

Also, free will isn't the only point of this model. It also completely eliminates time paradoxes, it gets rid of needing to appeal to this or that for things that just happen that have a small chance of happening, etc.
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,251
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4/18/2015 7:13:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 6:39:03 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:56:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not clear why this view of time is required for the illusion of free will. Illusions are false impressions of reality, and therefore can be squared with just about anything since they don't have to answer to logic.

If you have the classic view of the B-Theory of Time and realize the universe operates under that model, then there is only one future. You can think certain things seem like choices, but you would know they are not. As Daniel Dennett has said, when one is entirely convinced that there is no free will then they will be unable to act as if there is.


That's almost certainly false.

Anyway, I still don't see how the illusion of free will under your proposed model of time is any more "real" (or should that be less real?) than the illusion of free will under a linear, deterministic view of time. An illusion is an illusion, end of story.

Also, free will isn't the only point of this model. It also completely eliminates time paradoxes, it gets rid of needing to appeal to this or that for things that just happen that have a small chance of happening, etc.
SNP1
Posts: 2,404
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4/18/2015 7:16:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/18/2015 7:13:12 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/18/2015 6:39:03 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 4/18/2015 3:56:24 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's not clear why this view of time is required for the illusion of free will. Illusions are false impressions of reality, and therefore can be squared with just about anything since they don't have to answer to logic.

If you have the classic view of the B-Theory of Time and realize the universe operates under that model, then there is only one future. You can think certain things seem like choices, but you would know they are not. As Daniel Dennett has said, when one is entirely convinced that there is no free will then they will be unable to act as if there is.


That's almost certainly false.

Anyway, I still don't see how the illusion of free will under your proposed model of time is any more "real" (or should that be less real?) than the illusion of free will under a linear, deterministic view of time. An illusion is an illusion, end of story.

Well, the free will part comes only if you accept that part from Daniel Dennett. That is because the phenomenal view can only experience one of the infinite futures, and thus it allows for the possibility of limited choice of which future.

If you reject that idea from Daniel Dennett, then there is no real difference.

Also, free will isn't the only point of this model. It also completely eliminates time paradoxes, it gets rid of needing to appeal to this or that for things that just happen that have a small chance of happening, etc.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO