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So free will exists?

Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.

You can't? Lol so much for free will.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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5/2/2015 5:14:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a soft determinist in that I think we may have a small degree of free will. Research into action suggests that we have some kind of 'veto' system, where actions are determined at the point of initiation but can be vetoed by our conscious review process. This strikes me as plausible.

Even if incorrect, I still think it obvious that we at most have minimal free will, if any at all.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 5:30:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.




You can't? Lol so much for free will.

So who or what is pulling your strings? I'd rather discuss free will with the puppeteer than with the puppet.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 5:38:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If he wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

At 5/2/2015 5:30:56 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.




You can't? Lol so much for free will.

So who or what is pulling your strings? I'd rather discuss free will with the puppeteer than with the puppet.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 5:47:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 5:38:30 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
If he wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

At 5/2/2015 5:30:56 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.




You can't? Lol so much for free will.

So who or what is pulling your strings? I'd rather discuss free will with the puppeteer than with the puppet.

So, if I want your opinion I should ask him?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 6:03:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
no. You would only want my opinion if he wanted you to. But enough joking around.

Predeterminism doesn't imply sentient causality.
Its raining so you wear a raincoat. Nobody made it rain. Nobody forced you to wear a raincoat. Its merely logical conclusion in a given situation.
All situations have logical conclusions.

At 5/2/2015 5:47:44 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 5:38:30 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
If he wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

At 5/2/2015 5:30:56 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.




You can't? Lol so much for free will.

So who or what is pulling your strings? I'd rather discuss free will with the puppeteer than with the puppet.

So, if I want your opinion I should ask him?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 6:10:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
latest research has found evidence of a oops sector of the brain situated in the frontal loab. It not only learns from past experience but prewarns us when we are about to make a mistake. Its not a conscious process that we control. The more we learn about the brain, the more it becomes apparent we have no control.

At 5/2/2015 5:14:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
I'm a soft determinist in that I think we may have a small degree of free will. Research into action suggests that we have some kind of 'veto' system, where actions are determined at the point of initiation but can be vetoed by our conscious review process. This strikes me as plausible.

Even if incorrect, I still think it obvious that we at most have minimal free will, if any at all.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 6:28:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 6:03:25 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
no. You would only want my opinion if he wanted you to. But enough joking around.

Predeterminism doesn't imply sentient causality.
Its raining so you wear a raincoat. Nobody made it rain. Nobody forced you to wear a raincoat. Its merely logical conclusion in a given situation.
All situations have logical conclusions.

But my raincoat is red and my shoes are brown, one could not possibly be seen wearing a red raincoat and brown shoes after 5pm. So I choose to not wear a raincoat.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 6:39:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I really don't understand peoples obsession with a need for free will. Its like Neo in the Matrix fighting to free me. Seriously dude, I'm good. I like the order and structure the matrix offers. You prefer chaos? I'll pass.

At 5/2/2015 6:23:54 AM, XLAV wrote:
Free will is an illusion. Everything is predetermined.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 6:41:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
you seem like a logical person and your duductions seem logical so your decision seems logical. Is there a point to this statement?

At 5/2/2015 6:28:19 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:03:25 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
no. You would only want my opinion if he wanted you to. But enough joking around.

Predeterminism doesn't imply sentient causality.
Its raining so you wear a raincoat. Nobody made it rain. Nobody forced you to wear a raincoat. Its merely logical conclusion in a given situation.
All situations have logical conclusions.

But my raincoat is red and my shoes are brown, one could not possibly be seen wearing a red raincoat and brown shoes after 5pm. So I choose to not wear a raincoat.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 6:48:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 6:41:48 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
you seem like a logical person and your duductions seem logical so your decision seems logical. Is there a point to this statement?

At 5/2/2015 6:28:19 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:03:25 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
no. You would only want my opinion if he wanted you to. But enough joking around.

Predeterminism doesn't imply sentient causality.
Its raining so you wear a raincoat. Nobody made it rain. Nobody forced you to wear a raincoat. Its merely logical conclusion in a given situation.
All situations have logical conclusions.

But my raincoat is red and my shoes are brown, one could not possibly be seen wearing a red raincoat and brown shoes after 5pm. So I choose to not wear a raincoat.
It was merely the most illogical reasoning I could muster. I was hoping that you'd recognise the absurdity of my reasoning and maybe reconsider your statement that the choice to wear a raincoat is merely a logical conclusion.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 7:10:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lol you arguing my point that the conclusion is logical by showing me how illogical a illogical choice is?

At 5/2/2015 6:48:55 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:41:48 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
you seem like a logical person and your duductions seem logical so your decision seems logical. Is there a point to this statement?

At 5/2/2015 6:28:19 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 6:03:25 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
no. You would only want my opinion if he wanted you to. But enough joking around.

Predeterminism doesn't imply sentient causality.
Its raining so you wear a raincoat. Nobody made it rain. Nobody forced you to wear a raincoat. Its merely logical conclusion in a given situation.
All situations have logical conclusions.

But my raincoat is red and my shoes are brown, one could not possibly be seen wearing a red raincoat and brown shoes after 5pm. So I choose to not wear a raincoat.
It was merely the most illogical reasoning I could muster. I was hoping that you'd recognise the absurdity of my reasoning and maybe reconsider your statement that the choice to wear a raincoat is merely a logical conclusion.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 7:27:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 7:10:46 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Lol you arguing my point that the conclusion is logical by showing me how illogical a illogical choice is?

Certainly,
i'm simply trying to suggest that not all decisions we make are the result of logic. Same as a flip of a coin, there's no logic that will guide one to choosing correctly as to which side will be up.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 9:11:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
lol you missing the point. I'm not interested in your choice or how you got to it. If you wanna flip a coin to decide, be my guest. You just do whatever the coin tells you to do. But explain how that is free will? The coin decides.

And don't forget, when the time comes you have no alternative except to flip a coin. Why? Because you can't choose between a or b. So you pick c. Let chance decide.

At 5/2/2015 7:27:42 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 7:10:46 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Lol you arguing my point that the conclusion is logical by showing me how illogical a illogical choice is?

Certainly,
i'm simply trying to suggest that not all decisions we make are the result of logic. Same as a flip of a coin, there's no logic that will guide one to choosing correctly as to which side will be up.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 10:09:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 9:11:54 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
lol you missing the point. I'm not interested in your choice or how you got to it. If you wanna flip a coin to decide, be my guest. You just do whatever the coin tells you to do. But explain how that is free will? The coin decides.

And don't forget, when the time comes you have no alternative except to flip a coin. Why? Because you can't choose between a or b. So you pick c. Let chance decide.

At 5/2/2015 7:27:42 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 7:10:46 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Lol you arguing my point that the conclusion is logical by showing me how illogical a illogical choice is?

Certainly,
i'm simply trying to suggest that not all decisions we make are the result of logic. Same as a flip of a coin, there's no logic that will guide one to choosing correctly as to which side will be up.
Firstly, typing "lol" does nothing to enhance your argument. It implies that you think my argument is laughable. Keep it up and I might start just "lol"ing everything you write.
So, continuing the analogy, if I am unable to choose between a and b then, yes, I might choose to flip a coin. That's the first decision which is not based on a logical conclusion. I must then define a meaning to heads and to tails. That's a second decision that's not based on a logical conclusion. It is my free will which allows me to make those decisions, the outcome of which is not predetermined.

You say, "I'm not interested in your choice or how you got to it." of course you're not interested, your assertion is that I have no choice and that whatever the outcome, it was predetermined.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 12:19:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I apologise for the lol. I clearly stated that option c was the only option available to you.
Heads and tails are not choices either. Unless you still gonna decide to do whatever the coin determines. That defeats the purpose of tossing a coin.

At 5/2/2015 10:09:29 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 9:11:54 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
lol you missing the point. I'm not interested in your choice or how you got to it. If you wanna flip a coin to decide, be my guest. You just do whatever the coin tells you to do. But explain how that is free will? The coin decides.

And don't forget, when the time comes you have no alternative except to flip a coin. Why? Because you can't choose between a or b. So you pick c. Let chance decide.

At 5/2/2015 7:27:42 AM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 7:10:46 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Lol you arguing my point that the conclusion is logical by showing me how illogical a illogical choice is?

Certainly,
i'm simply trying to suggest that not all decisions we make are the result of logic. Same as a flip of a coin, there's no logic that will guide one to choosing correctly as to which side will be up.
Firstly, typing "lol" does nothing to enhance your argument. It implies that you think my argument is laughable. Keep it up and I might start just "lol"ing everything you write.
So, continuing the analogy, if I am unable to choose between a and b then, yes, I might choose to flip a coin. That's the first decision which is not based on a logical conclusion. I must then define a meaning to heads and to tails. That's a second decision that's not based on a logical conclusion. It is my free will which allows me to make those decisions, the outcome of which is not predetermined.

You say, "I'm not interested in your choice or how you got to it." of course you're not interested, your assertion is that I have no choice and that whatever the outcome, it was predetermined.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 1:05:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 12:19:15 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
I apologise for the lol. I clearly stated that option c was the only option available to you.
Heads and tails are not choices either. Unless you still gonna decide to do whatever the coin determines. That defeats the purpose of tossing a coin.
Tell me, did I choose heads then I will do a, and tails I will do b, or did I choose heads for b and tails for a? Did the coin determine that choice?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 1:10:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Again its predetermined. Traditionally people say heads you win, tails you lose. I have no idea what your personal preferences are but I'm sure you will follow your regular pattern

At 5/2/2015 1:05:04 PM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 12:19:15 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
I apologise for the lol. I clearly stated that option c was the only option available to you.
Heads and tails are not choices either. Unless you still gonna decide to do whatever the coin determines. That defeats the purpose of tossing a coin.
Tell me, did I choose heads then I will do a, and tails I will do b, or did I choose heads for b and tails for a? Did the coin determine that choice?
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 2:13:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 1:10:47 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Again its predetermined. Traditionally people say heads you win, tails you lose. I have no idea what your personal preferences are but I'm sure you will follow your regular pattern

My regular pattern when making an arbitrary decision is to assign each side of the coin to an arbitrary result. How the coin lands, is not predetermined, nor was the final decision based on any logic. I could just as easily have avoided fiddling with a coin and simply arbitrarily selected a or b. Which is why I said that I might flip a coin.
Of course you are sure that I have a regular pattern, because you choose to believe that all actions and choices are predetermined. Oops, I forgot, you personally have no choices on any matter.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 2:31:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Exactly. Unless an external event alters my beliefs I will continue having the same beliefs. Just like you can't choose to believe you have no free will. I can't choose to believe I do. Its predetermined.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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5/2/2015 4:47:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 5:03:52 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
Demonstrate it. Choose to believe free will is an illusion and not predetermined. According to me I can't change my will but you say you can. This is the perfect opportunity to prove it.




You can't? Lol so much for free will.

Define "free will" in objective terms. Go.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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5/2/2015 4:55:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
SO if we have absolutely no free will, who is the one determining my actions and destiny? Oh you can't cay?

So much for pre-determinism.
NoTomorrow
Posts: 26
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5/2/2015 5:00:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 2:31:44 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Exactly. Unless an external event alters my beliefs I will continue having the same beliefs. Just like you can't choose to believe you have no free will. I can't choose to believe I do. Its predetermined.

So, are you going to provide some evidence to support your assertion or are you just going to sit back and agree with me that I have free will whereas you have forfeited free speech, free thinking and freedom to act independently by assigning those attributes to someone or something else?
Oh, I could believe that I don't have free will, but you have not provided any evidence for your assertion, whilst I have given evidence to deny your assertion.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/2/2015 5:05:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
if you truly have free will you need nothing but will to change your belief. If you require proof that means the choice is not yours. My proof is what alters your choice.

At 5/2/2015 5:00:49 PM, NoTomorrow wrote:
At 5/2/2015 2:31:44 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Exactly. Unless an external event alters my beliefs I will continue having the same beliefs. Just like you can't choose to believe you have no free will. I can't choose to believe I do. Its predetermined.

So, are you going to provide some evidence to support your assertion or are you just going to sit back and agree with me that I have free will whereas you have forfeited free speech, free thinking and freedom to act independently by assigning those attributes to someone or something else?
Oh, I could believe that I don't have free will, but you have not provided any evidence for your assertion, whilst I have given evidence to deny your assertion.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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5/2/2015 5:06:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/2/2015 5:00:38 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
I never implied a sentient being imposing their will on you.

Your thinking too narrowly. If something is predetermined- who or what and how is your destiny pre-written and determined since you are so sure. You made the post so you have the burden of proof.

I could say that I chose to type this post, and that is my free will all day and the only rebuttal you would have is that that action was predetermined, so you explain since you are suddenly all knowing.
Furyan5
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5/2/2015 5:11:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But you can't will your belief to change. You can't will yourself to like orange juice. You can't will yourself to hate your girlfriend. You have no free will. Its all pre determined.