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Mirror Facing Mirror...

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/21/2015 6:44:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.

Good response.
no1special
Posts: 56
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6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.
Surrealism
Posts: 265
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6/22/2015 1:46:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Every reflection contains a proportionately smaller number of photons, until it reaches the point at which the number is so small it cannot be meaningfully called a reflection.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/22/2015 11:20:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.

So, he is suggesting that the infinite is never attained?
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/22/2015 10:22:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 11:20:20 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

No, it wouldn't need to stop, it's just that there will never be a point in time in which it can't continue to go farther, the infinite distance can never be reached.

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.

So, he is suggesting that the infinite is never attained?

Yes, it can never actually travel an infinite distance.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/22/2015 10:34:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The problem with the existence of an actual infinite is that even if one could exist, how could we know it?

You can't count or measure an infinite, I don't think it's possible for a finite being to know an actual infinite,
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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6/23/2015 12:52:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

If infinity advances forward endlessly, then it must also be traceable inversely, backwards endlessly. This pertains to a number scale.

So how is the determination of infinity made in reality?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/23/2015 6:29:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 10:22:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:20:20 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

No, it wouldn't need to stop, it's just that there will never be a point in time in which it can't continue to go farther, the infinite distance can never be reached.

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.

So, he is suggesting that the infinite is never attained?

Yes, it can never actually travel an infinite distance.

Well, my nephew in fifth grade knows that.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/23/2015 6:41:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/22/2015 10:34:05 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
The problem with the existence of an actual infinite is that even if one could exist, how could we know it?

You can't count or measure an infinite, I don't think it's possible for a finite being to know an actual infinite,

It seems you are learning the definition of 'infinite'.
Soon you will be smarter than a fifth grader.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/23/2015 10:16:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 6:29:24 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 10:22:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:20:20 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

No, it wouldn't need to stop, it's just that there will never be a point in time in which it can't continue to go farther, the infinite distance can never be reached.

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.

So, he is suggesting that the infinite is never attained?

Yes, it can never actually travel an infinite distance.

Well, my nephew in fifth grade knows that.

Then why didn't you have your nephew explain it to you?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/23/2015 10:37:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 10:16:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/23/2015 6:29:24 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 10:22:00 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:20:20 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 11:08:31 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/22/2015 9:01:04 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/22/2015 6:40:58 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Nope, light travels at a finite speed, so there could not be an infinite number of reflections.

So, lets change the bouncing reflection to a straight line.
Let's shoot a ray of light out that straight line.
Are you suggesting that the ray of light could not travel an infinite distance, because the speed of light is finite?
If so, then am I to assume the ray of light has a stopping point, where it ceases to travel?

No, it wouldn't need to stop, it's just that there will never be a point in time in which it can't continue to go farther, the infinite distance can never be reached.

The point he is making is that even if the light travels for ever that is still only a potential infinite, not actual.

So, he is suggesting that the infinite is never attained?

Yes, it can never actually travel an infinite distance.

Well, my nephew in fifth grade knows that.

Then why didn't you have your nephew explain it to you?

Now how do you suppose I would know he understood the concept unless I understood it first?
As you explain your original reply, it was trite and rather meaningless.
It may be your explanation, of your reply was not truthful.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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6/23/2015 11:11:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Light is energy and will lose a bit of it's energy when it reflects off of a surface, even if it's a mirror. Hence, it won't reflect to infinity, but only as far a the how much energy is lost in any given number of "bounces".
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
no1special
Posts: 56
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6/23/2015 7:52:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.
I see but that's not really what I meant, my question was more on the nature of time.
no1special
Posts: 56
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6/23/2015 8:32:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 11:11:34 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Light is energy and will lose a bit of it's energy when it reflects off of a surface, even if it's a mirror. Hence, it won't reflect to infinity, but only as far a the how much energy is lost in any given number of "bounces".
Assuming this is happening in a vacuum is that still the case?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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6/23/2015 11:48:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/23/2015 8:32:01 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/23/2015 11:11:34 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Light is energy and will lose a bit of it's energy when it reflects off of a surface, even if it's a mirror. Hence, it won't reflect to infinity, but only as far a the how much energy is lost in any given number of "bounces".
Assuming this is happening in a vacuum is that still the case?

Yes, it redshifts then disappears,
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/24/2015 11:11:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.

'Infinite' is a concept generally accepted by physicists and philosophers.
The OP does not have to presuppose 'infinite' exists, they only have to presume that physicists are philosophers accept the concept of the infinite.
Since it is taught to students at various education levels, worldwide, there is little doubt.
This is reasonable, and needs no substantiation.
They do not have to demonstrate the belief is correct.
They do not have to point to infinity, or hold it in their hands.
Something that is generally accepted as true, is true for the purposes of a debate.
If the opposing side can show the belief is false, then they need to change the minds of physicists and philosophers, or convince the OP to change their position.

There are some philosophers who question the existence of physical objects such as mirrors, and reflections they might cause. This is a non-issue for a debate point such as this.

If time can be infinite, then the distance something could travel, in a straight line, reflecting, or circular, could be infinite.
The counting of ordinal numbers could also be infinite.
~ ~

Contemporary physicists generally agree with Newton that future time is potentially infinite, but it is an open question whether past time is finite or infinite.
http://www.iep.utm.edu...

Will there be an infinite amount of time in the future? Probably. According to the classical theory of the Big Bang, the answer depends on whether events will keep occurring. The best estimate from the cosmologists these days is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and will continue forever. There always will be the events of galaxy clusters getting farther apart, and so future time will have an infinite duration, even though gravity will continue to compact much of the matter into black holes.
http://www.andersoninstitute.com...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/24/2015 11:16:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:11:48 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.

'Infinite' is a concept generally accepted by physicists and philosophers.
The OP does not have to presuppose 'infinite' exists, they only have to presume that physicists are philosophers accept the concept of the infinite.
Since it is taught to students at various education levels, worldwide, there is little doubt.

So soundness of arguments is done on popular vote to the conclusion?

This is reasonable, and needs no substantiation.
They do not have to demonstrate the belief is correct.
They do not have to point to infinity, or hold it in their hands.
Something that is generally accepted as true, is true for the purposes of a debate.
If the opposing side can show the belief is false, then they need to change the minds of physicists and philosophers, or convince the OP to change their position.

Wtf is this. This has nothing to do with my post or the OP. FYI I have no problem with actual infinities, I instead have a problem with unsound arguments, of which the OP is one of them.

There are some philosophers who question the existence of physical objects such as mirrors, and reflections they might cause. This is a non-issue for a debate point such as this.

If time can be infinite, then the distance something could travel, in a straight line, reflecting, or circular, could be infinite.
The counting of ordinal numbers could also be infinite.
~ ~

Contemporary physicists generally agree with Newton that future time is potentially infinite, but it is an open question whether past time is finite or infinite.
http://www.iep.utm.edu...

Will there be an infinite amount of time in the future? Probably. According to the classical theory of the Big Bang, the answer depends on whether events will keep occurring. The best estimate from the cosmologists these days is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and will continue forever. There always will be the events of galaxy clusters getting farther apart, and so future time will have an infinite duration, even though gravity will continue to compact much of the matter into black holes.
http://www.andersoninstitute.com...
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/24/2015 11:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:16:46 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:11:48 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.

'Infinite' is a concept generally accepted by physicists and philosophers.
The OP does not have to presuppose 'infinite' exists, they only have to presume that physicists are philosophers accept the concept of the infinite.
Since it is taught to students at various education levels, worldwide, there is little doubt.

So soundness of arguments is done on popular vote to the conclusion?

This is reasonable, and needs no substantiation.
They do not have to demonstrate the belief is correct.
They do not have to point to infinity, or hold it in their hands.
Something that is generally accepted as true, is true for the purposes of a debate.
If the opposing side can show the belief is false, then they need to change the minds of physicists and philosophers, or convince the OP to change their position.

Wtf is this. This has nothing to do with my post or the OP. FYI I have no problem with actual infinities, I instead have a problem with unsound arguments, of which the OP is one of them.

It is only unsound if the OP has to assume the conclusion.
The OP asks "would this be an example?", of something commonly held to exist.
So the answer is "Yes this is an example.", or 'No, this does not work."
No circular reasoning involved, only acceptance of commonly held beliefs.

Your rebuttal is, you disagree?
You disagree that infinite time is a commonly held belief among physicists and philosophers?
You disagree that commonly held beliefs do not have to be presupposed, but merely accepted?

There are some philosophers who question the existence of physical objects such as mirrors, and reflections they might cause. This is a non-issue for a debate point such as this.

If time can be infinite, then the distance something could travel, in a straight line, reflecting, or circular, could be infinite.
The counting of ordinal numbers could also be infinite.
~ ~

Contemporary physicists generally agree with Newton that future time is potentially infinite, but it is an open question whether past time is finite or infinite.
http://www.iep.utm.edu...

Will there be an infinite amount of time in the future? Probably. According to the classical theory of the Big Bang, the answer depends on whether events will keep occurring. The best estimate from the cosmologists these days is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and will continue forever. There always will be the events of galaxy clusters getting farther apart, and so future time will have an infinite duration, even though gravity will continue to compact much of the matter into black holes.
http://www.andersoninstitute.com...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/24/2015 11:59:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:26:11 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:16:46 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:11:48 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.

'Infinite' is a concept generally accepted by physicists and philosophers.
The OP does not have to presuppose 'infinite' exists, they only have to presume that physicists are philosophers accept the concept of the infinite.
Since it is taught to students at various education levels, worldwide, there is little doubt.

So soundness of arguments is done on popular vote to the conclusion?

This is reasonable, and needs no substantiation.
They do not have to demonstrate the belief is correct.
They do not have to point to infinity, or hold it in their hands.
Something that is generally accepted as true, is true for the purposes of a debate.
If the opposing side can show the belief is false, then they need to change the minds of physicists and philosophers, or convince the OP to change their position.

Wtf is this. This has nothing to do with my post or the OP. FYI I have no problem with actual infinities, I instead have a problem with unsound arguments, of which the OP is one of them.

It is only unsound if the OP has to assume the conclusion.
The OP asks "would this be an example?", of something commonly held to exist.
So the answer is "Yes this is an example.", or 'No, this does not work."
No circular reasoning involved, only acceptance of commonly held beliefs.

Your rebuttal is, you disagree?
You disagree that infinite time is a commonly held belief among physicists and philosophers?
You disagree that commonly held beliefs do not have to be presupposed, but merely accepted?

I basically said that "even if it was an example, it would only be a possible example if you presuppose infinite time". Given the argument is meant to show actual infinites are possible, then it becomes circular.

I.e. it begs the question of whether such an example is possible.


There are some philosophers who question the existence of physical objects such as mirrors, and reflections they might cause. This is a non-issue for a debate point such as this.

If time can be infinite, then the distance something could travel, in a straight line, reflecting, or circular, could be infinite.
The counting of ordinal numbers could also be infinite.
~ ~

Contemporary physicists generally agree with Newton that future time is potentially infinite, but it is an open question whether past time is finite or infinite.
http://www.iep.utm.edu...

Will there be an infinite amount of time in the future? Probably. According to the classical theory of the Big Bang, the answer depends on whether events will keep occurring. The best estimate from the cosmologists these days is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and will continue forever. There always will be the events of galaxy clusters getting farther apart, and so future time will have an infinite duration, even though gravity will continue to compact much of the matter into black holes.
http://www.andersoninstitute.com...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,280
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6/24/2015 12:11:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

There is a loss of light on each reflection (generally around 1% if memory serves me). Thus there is a limited number of reflections. Additionally the light would have to originate from within the mirror otherwise it would reflect out of the mirrors. Finally the speed of light is finite thus the number of reflections is finite.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/24/2015 12:20:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 11:59:30 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:26:11 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:16:46 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/24/2015 11:11:48 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:09:28 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 7:06:41 PM, no1special wrote:
At 6/21/2015 6:18:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

Speed of light is contant, and the actual number of reflections depends on how fast the image of one mirror reaches the other mirror. You would need to presupposes an infinite amount of time to assert an infinite number of reflections even in a perfect thought experiment.
Is that a safe thing to presuppose in your opinion?

No. It is a formal logical fallacy of circular reasoning - since it presupposes the conclusion it is attempting to draw (in this case, the conclusion that actual infinities can exist). Thus, it is impossible for the argument to be sound.

'Infinite' is a concept generally accepted by physicists and philosophers.
The OP does not have to presuppose 'infinite' exists, they only have to presume that physicists are philosophers accept the concept of the infinite.
Since it is taught to students at various education levels, worldwide, there is little doubt.

So soundness of arguments is done on popular vote to the conclusion?

This is reasonable, and needs no substantiation.
They do not have to demonstrate the belief is correct.
They do not have to point to infinity, or hold it in their hands.
Something that is generally accepted as true, is true for the purposes of a debate.
If the opposing side can show the belief is false, then they need to change the minds of physicists and philosophers, or convince the OP to change their position.

Wtf is this. This has nothing to do with my post or the OP. FYI I have no problem with actual infinities, I instead have a problem with unsound arguments, of which the OP is one of them.

It is only unsound if the OP has to assume the conclusion.
The OP asks "would this be an example?", of something commonly held to exist.
So the answer is "Yes this is an example.", or 'No, this does not work."
No circular reasoning involved, only acceptance of commonly held beliefs.

Your rebuttal is, you disagree?
You disagree that infinite time is a commonly held belief among physicists and philosophers?
You disagree that commonly held beliefs do not have to be presupposed, but merely accepted?

I basically said that "even if it was an example, it would only be a possible example if you presuppose infinite time". Given the argument is meant to show actual infinites are possible, then it becomes circular.

I.e. it begs the question of whether such an example is possible.

Again I say, commonly held belief do not have to be presupposed, only accepted.
I read no intention to demonstrate the validity of 'infinie', only to possibility demonstrate a real world example.

So again I ask, do you disagree that commonly held beliefs are accepted, not presupposed?



There are some philosophers who question the existence of physical objects such as mirrors, and reflections they might cause. This is a non-issue for a debate point such as this.

If time can be infinite, then the distance something could travel, in a straight line, reflecting, or circular, could be infinite.
The counting of ordinal numbers could also be infinite.
~ ~

Contemporary physicists generally agree with Newton that future time is potentially infinite, but it is an open question whether past time is finite or infinite.
http://www.iep.utm.edu...

Will there be an infinite amount of time in the future? Probably. According to the classical theory of the Big Bang, the answer depends on whether events will keep occurring. The best estimate from the cosmologists these days is that the expansion of the universe is accelerating and will continue forever. There always will be the events of galaxy clusters getting farther apart, and so future time will have an infinite duration, even though gravity will continue to compact much of the matter into black holes.
http://www.andersoninstitute.com...
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/24/2015 12:26:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 12:11:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

There is a loss of light on each reflection (generally around 1% if memory serves me). Thus there is a limited number of reflections. Additionally the light would have to originate from within the mirror otherwise it would reflect out of the mirrors. Finally the speed of light is finite thus the number of reflections is finite.

You seem to say since the speed is finite, the potential distance of travel is finite.
So a ray of light traveling in a straight line, has a finite distance it can travel, then it stops?

Dissipation would be an issue separate from speed.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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6/24/2015 12:34:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 12:11:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 6/21/2015 5:45:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would we have a real life example of actual infinity? It seems so, as there would be an actually infinite number of reflections existing at one time.

There is a loss of light on each reflection (generally around 1% if memory serves me). Thus there is a limited number of reflections. Additionally the light would have to originate from within the mirror otherwise it would reflect out of the mirrors. Finally the speed of light is finite thus the number of reflections is finite.

The speed of light has nothing to do with the number of reflections, it all has to do with the frequency/energy of the light and the composition of the mirrors.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
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