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Sorry, I know now

kp98
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7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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7/19/2015 9:19:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM, kp98 wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.

Well that's it, it's all over. The machines will rise and take over the world.

I for one welcome our new overlords.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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7/19/2015 11:47:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM, kp98 wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.

Pretty interesting. Do you know if there is a corresponding academic publication?
kp98
Posts: 729
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7/19/2015 1:07:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm fairly sure that there isn't anything peer reviewed yet - I have looked fairly hard. The original source - Rensselaer Polytechnic - looks genuine enough. If there anything deep to it we'll hear a lot more, but I won't be holding my breath.

There's a 'cute video' to go with the story - probably a bad sign!
http://qz.com...
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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7/19/2015 2:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM, kp98 wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.

If that's true and there's no trick behind that, meaning that this is done purely through artificial intelligence, it is simply mind blowing. A robot being able to understand he has some skill (voice) that his mates lack, is an enormous step forward for machine's consciousness.
kp98
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7/19/2015 2:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
That is what makes the story interesting - perhaps that idea is wrong and a robot can be conscious (or self-aware, I won't make a distinction here).

I can' deny that no-one has definitively suceeded in producing 'artificial consciousness'.

Most materialists will say that it's only a matter of time, but consciousness is a thorn in the side of materialism because it's turns out that it's not only hard to solve the problem of consciousness; it's even hard to even say what the problem is!

I'd like to open things up by asking my fellow materialists why we (ie scientists and techies, not literally you and I) have not succeeded in producing a conscious robot already. I'm pretty sure I know why some people think we've failed, but what do science and technology fans think?
kp98
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7/19/2015 2:56:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Lots of people would agree with you. Care to elaborate? What is it about you and I that means we are not zombies (in Chalmers's sense, not the voodoo sense for anybody reading).
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 3:58:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 2:56:44 PM, kp98 wrote:
Lots of people would agree with you. Care to elaborate? What is it about you and I that means we are not zombies (in Chalmers's sense, not the voodoo sense for anybody reading).
https://en.wikipedia.org...

We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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7/19/2015 4:08:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
How the hell is this a self-awareness test? The robot was programmed to attempt to output audio, if its output is audible, it claims it knows. There needs to be no consciousness involved. The only thing it can do is recognize when it is outputting audio, Google chrome can do that.

This is a good example at how bad science journalism is.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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7/19/2015 4:09:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 2:46:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe that robots that act self-ware are just like P-Zombies but mechanical and not biological.

Exactly. There's more to self-awareness than just actions. Searle's argument shows that.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Saint_of_Me
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7/19/2015 4:11:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM, kp98 wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.

This is not "self awareness." It is merely programming. Software. Imitating and not actually feeling self-awareness.

This robot would not pass the Turing Test, in my opinion. And that is only the 1st step for AI to be considered legitimate.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
kp98
Posts: 729
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7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 4:34:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM, kp98 wrote:
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

Well, if there does exist this non-mental material brain I wouldn't even concede that it could produce consciousness. There is nothing special about it. The same reason for why a computer cannot create consciousness would apply to brains as well I would think.


In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 4:35:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM, kp98 wrote:
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.

It doesn't seem plausible that any mindless atomic interaction can cause something like the feeling of love to arise. It is just an appeal to magic in my view. It would be like saying you can arrange rocks a certain way and an ocean will appear.
kp98
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7/19/2015 4:42:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bit tangled? I don't see why I, kp98 meat-machine can be conscious but kp99 (my metal android twin) can't be. I'll concede we don't know how to program consciousness today, (unless there has been a very recent breakthrough!) but you seem to think its impossible in principle. Do I get that right?
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 4:48:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:42:17 PM, kp98 wrote:
Bit tangled? I don't see why I, kp98 meat-machine can be conscious but kp99 (my metal android twin) can't be. I'll concede we don't know how to program consciousness today, (unless there has been a very recent breakthrough!) but you seem to think its impossible in principle. Do I get that right?

I think its impossible in principle for any mindless and dead atomic interactions to give rise to the feeling of love, or the world of perception. I think that it a perfectly material world; consciousness doesn't exist. So if you believe in materialism and consciousness, it seems hard to reconcile the two. When I introspect (examine the mind), I don't find anything material... This is a problem for materialist, and one of the reasons I am not one.
kp98
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7/19/2015 5:38:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You are absolutely right - afaik - no one has ever worked out how to generate 'subjective experiences' (anyone objection to the term? Qualia is another option) in a robot or computer program. I said in an earlier post that consciousness presents materialism with a big problem - but I don't see how idealism helps. It's no easier for me to imagine how love arises in the idealist world-view than in the materialist one. Enlighten me!
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 5:56:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 5:38:11 PM, kp98 wrote:
You are absolutely right - afaik - no one has ever worked out how to generate 'subjective experiences' (anyone objection to the term? Qualia is another option) in a robot or computer program. I said in an earlier post that consciousness presents materialism with a big problem - but I don't see how idealism helps. It's no easier for me to imagine how love arises in the idealist world-view than in the materialist one. Enlighten me!

Love is a mental and conscious feeling. If everything is within mind or consciousness then love forming is like a whirlpool forming in a body of water. It is all one type of thing (water is analogous to mentality here). But on materialism you have these non-mental and dead atomic interactions that are nothing like consciousness magically forming a conscious feeling called love.

Do you see the difference here? Love forming in an idealist world is as easy as accepting a whirlpool in water (it is all one type of thing, watery), but in a world that is non-mental forming the feeling of love is like a watery whirlpool formed our of non-watery rocks. It is an appeal to magic.
Rational_Thinker9119
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7/19/2015 6:12:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 5:38:11 PM, kp98 wrote:
You are absolutely right - afaik - no one has ever worked out how to generate 'subjective experiences' (anyone objection to the term? Qualia is another option) in a robot or computer program. I said in an earlier post that consciousness presents materialism with a big problem - but I don't see how idealism helps. It's no easier for me to imagine how love arises in the idealist world-view than in the materialist one. Enlighten me!

Basically, Idealism is not burdened with the Hard-Problem like Materialism is. Idealism is not burdened with the Interaction Problem like Dualism is. Idealism seems like the best worldview... At least to me.
xXCryptoXx
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7/19/2015 7:58:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 8:23:11 AM, kp98 wrote:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com...

A robot demonstrates self-awareness - well maybe. If it's true 'Sorry I don't know' might go down with 'One small step for (a) man...' as an icon of a new era.

Or possibly not. Self-awareness and consciousness are tricky things.

Lol, a robot cannot, even in principle, demonstrate self awareness.
Nolite Timere
xXCryptoXx
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7/19/2015 8:01:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 2:46:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe that robots that act self-ware are just like P-Zombies but mechanical and not biological.

Right. They can only act like they are self-aware, but they cannot actually be self aware.
Nolite Timere
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/19/2015 9:19:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:35:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM, kp98 wrote:
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.

It doesn't seem plausible that any mindless atomic interaction can cause something like the feeling of love to arise. It is just an appeal to magic in my view. It would be like saying you can arrange rocks a certain way and an ocean will appear.

But the oceans do form from a pile of rocks.
kp98
Posts: 729
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7/20/2015 1:46:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It doesn't seem plausible that any mindless atomic interaction can cause something like the feeling of love to arise. It is just an appeal to magic in my view. It would be like saying you can arrange rocks a certain way and an ocean will appear.

It is rejecting the idea that robots can be conscious that requires magic to exist,

It may interest you to know that China already has a large number of high-tech factories producing machines that have advanced pattern-recognition and a high-level of self-awareness for use in their burgeoning electronics industries. They are called 'women's wombs'.

Babies and robots are made of the same stuff - atoms - albeit arranged differently. Surely if it is 'implausible' for a manufactured robot to be conscious (or capable of emotion - insert mental term of choice here) then it is implausibe for a baby (or what a baby grows into) to be conscious/emotional - unless one is willing to ascribe a magical qualty to 'human matter'.
Otokage
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7/20/2015 7:57:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:08:31 PM, n7 wrote:
How the hell is this a self-awareness test? The robot was programmed to attempt to output audio, if its output is audible, it claims it knows. There needs to be no consciousness involved. The only thing it can do is recognize when it is outputting audio, Google chrome can do that.

This is a good example at how bad science journalism is.

But it may not be programmed. If the robot uses purely AI and has learned he is a separate entity from his two mates, he recognices his own voice, and can make claims about his own actions or lack of actions, then he is self aware in my opinion. Im skeptical this is the case though, but the scientists are apparently claiming this.
Otokage
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7/20/2015 8:00:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM, kp98 wrote:
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.

well christians generaly think meat can shelter a spirit, while steel can not. They are very wise regarding matter properties!
Otokage
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7/20/2015 8:07:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/19/2015 4:35:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/19/2015 4:29:20 PM, kp98 wrote:
We have conscious experiences that correlates with our brain activity. The P-Zombie version of you would be identical, with all the brain activity, except that the "lights are off" consciously.

Yes, that's the definition - but what I wanted to know was why you think a robot can only be a zombie. I generally think of the brain is a machine - albeit one made of meat rather than metal - and brains (presumably) do manifest genuine non-zombie consciousness. What is so special about meat?

In case your wondering I am not trying to trap you or asking trick questions! This is a subject I really enjoy discussing.

It doesn't seem plausible that any mindless atomic interaction can cause something like the feeling of love to arise. It is just an appeal to magic in my view. It would be like saying you can arrange rocks a certain way and an ocean will appear.

Ironically, in your view, brains have this magical property called consciousness that is magicaly exclusive to them and moreover it is based in some non-material, therefore magical, structure.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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7/20/2015 11:18:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/20/2015 7:57:07 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/19/2015 4:08:31 PM, n7 wrote:
How the hell is this a self-awareness test? The robot was programmed to attempt to output audio, if its output is audible, it claims it knows. There needs to be no consciousness involved. The only thing it can do is recognize when it is outputting audio, Google chrome can do that.

This is a good example at how bad science journalism is.

But it may not be programmed. If the robot uses purely AI and has learned he is a separate entity from his two mates, he recognices his own voice, and can make claims about his own actions or lack of actions, then he is self aware in my opinion. Im skeptical this is the case though, but the scientists are apparently claiming this.

If it wasn't programmed, then it would've learned through connectionist means. Which is the same thing as being programmed, but just means it's programmed through trail and error. It still doesn't mean he actually understands what and that he speaks, instead of simply unconsciously detecting noise.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
kp98
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7/20/2015 12:20:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is a good example at how bad science journalism is.
I agree - we can't tell if its a yawn or a breakthrough. I'm 99% sure it's the former in which case we'll never hear of it again. If it's the latter then - what? The final nail in the coffin for idea that we are special started by Copernicus?

If it Is a breakthrough, you heard its first here, folks!