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Panpsychism

janesix
Posts: 3,446
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7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/23/2015 1:32:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

That used to be called "Animalism" or Vitalism from older philsophers. I think Rene Descartes was one. its an interesting idea that I would like to believe in but I cant quite go there. Native American religion also has some of this vitalism in it too~~~
I think for something to feel it has to have a nervous system. a brain. obvious that rocks and pieces of lumber, your chair, doesnt have those. so for me its "no way" on this idea. it is just groundless. not one little "atom" of proof. Ha!
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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7/23/2015 1:54:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

Panphychism is just the view that everything, including matter, is conscious. It doesn't assert that all consciousness is reducible to material processes.
oOoZoOo
Posts: 9
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7/23/2015 2:54:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So what would "my" consciousness be contributed to as I am a collection of systems made up of how many atoms?? How does consciousness=free will anyhow?
n7
Posts: 1,360
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7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
smelisox
Posts: 849
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7/23/2015 6:37:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

A bit like there's no unconscious, since you can't be conscious of being unconscious?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 6:50:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.

Why does a material object have mass? Why does an electron have spin? The Naturalist will say "that's just how nature works". What's wrong with Pansychists saying the same thing for why matter has consciousness? Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pansychist (I don't like this view either), but I'm not sure of the strength behind your criticism.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 6:50:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 6:37:38 PM, smelisox wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

A bit like there's no unconscious, since you can't be conscious of being unconscious?

Huh?
n7
Posts: 1,360
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7/23/2015 7:20:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 6:50:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.

Why does a material object have mass? Why does an electron have spin? The Naturalist will say "that's just how nature works". What's wrong with Pansychists saying the same thing for why matter has consciousness? Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pansychist (I don't like this view either), but I'm not sure of the strength behind your criticism.

But isn't that what the Hard Problem asks? How and why we have consciousness? Stating "It just works." seems like trying to waive an explanation. With physics, we have good ideas on what material objects and electrons are and how they work, some unexplained events will happen. But not at such a basic level when trying to explain the event, like what happens in panpsychism.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 9:03:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 7:20:33 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 6:50:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.

Why does a material object have mass? Why does an electron have spin? The Naturalist will say "that's just how nature works". What's wrong with Pansychists saying the same thing for why matter has consciousness? Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pansychist (I don't like this view either), but I'm not sure of the strength behind your criticism.

But isn't that what the Hard Problem asks? How and why we have consciousness?

Yes, but it isn't really a "hard" problem if Pansychism is true. It is only a "hard" problem because the material world has no mental or conscious properties at all, so it seems to be a hard pill to swallow that a particular arrangement of atoms can magically cause the qualities of experience. If consciousness is a property of everything, well, then..... No real problem is there?

"And it seems that we can easily conceive of creatures just like us physically and functionally that nonetheless lack consciousness. This indicates that a physical explanation of consciousness is fundamentally incomplete: it leaves out what it is like to be the subject, for the subject. There seems to be an unbridgeable explanatory gap between the physical world and consciousness. All these factors make the hard problem hard." [http://www.iep.utm.edu...]

Basically, the reason there is a Hard-Problem, and the reason we can conceive of P-Zombies is because matter doesn't have the property of consciousness. It is all dead, mindless, consciousnessless atomic interaction... There is no reason why consciousness should exist in such a universe. If consciousness is a property of all matter though, then P-Zombies are impossible. Thus, what makes the Hard-Problem "hard"... Disappears. Either way, I think Panpsychism is a terrible view. It seems to imply that everything is conscious; even my chair.

If you think your coke can being conscious is a harder pill to swallow than the Hard-Problem then I suggest not becoming a Panpsychist lol

Stating 'It just works.' seems like trying to waive an explanation. With physics, we have good ideas on what material objects and electrons are and how they work, some unexplained events will happen.

We have an explanation of how things work but we don't have an explanation as to why they are that way at all. Again, why does an electron spin? Why does gravity attract instead of being a repulsive force? Why does matter have mass?

You have no answer... Just like the Panpsychist. So, its not like your position is any better here is it?
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/23/2015 9:25:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 9:03:44 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 7:20:33 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 6:50:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.

Why does a material object have mass? Why does an electron have spin? The Naturalist will say "that's just how nature works". What's wrong with Pansychists saying the same thing for why matter has consciousness? Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pansychist (I don't like this view either), but I'm not sure of the strength behind your criticism.

But isn't that what the Hard Problem asks? How and why we have consciousness?

Yes, but it isn't really a "hard" problem if Pansychism is true. It is only a "hard" problem because the material world has no mental or conscious properties at all, so it seems to be a hard pill to swallow that a particular arrangement of atoms can magically cause the qualities of experience. If consciousness is a property of everything, well, then..... No real problem is there?

"And it seems that we can easily conceive of creatures just like us physically and functionally that nonetheless lack consciousness. This indicates that a physical explanation of consciousness is fundamentally incomplete: it leaves out what it is like to be the subject, for the subject. There seems to be an unbridgeable explanatory gap between the physical world and consciousness. All these factors make the hard problem hard." [http://www.iep.utm.edu...]

Basically, the reason there is a Hard-Problem, and the reason we can conceive of P-Zombies is because matter doesn't have the property of consciousness. It is all dead, mindless, consciousnessless atomic interaction... There is no reason why consciousness should exist in such a universe. If consciousness is a property of all matter though, then P-Zombies are impossible. Thus, what makes the Hard-Problem "hard"... Disappears. Either way, I think Panpsychism is a terrible view. It seems to imply that everything is conscious; even my chair.

If you think your coke can being conscious is a harder pill to swallow than the Hard-Problem then I suggest not becoming a Panpsychist lol

Stating 'It just works.' seems like trying to waive an explanation. With physics, we have good ideas on what material objects and electrons are and how they work, some unexplained events will happen.

We have an explanation of how things work but we don't have an explanation as to why they are that way at all. Again, why does an electron spin? Why does gravity attract instead of being a repulsive force? Why does matter have mass?

You have no answer... Just like the Panpsychist. So, its not like your position is any better here is it?

your answers......An electron does not really spin/that is a figure of speech. Spin is actually angular momentum in the electron's probability cloud, which they used to call orbits in the standard model. this movement is cause by the weak nuclear force.

Gravity attracts because the gravitons are the particles that carry the force and they pull toward the object, just like the atom's nucleus is held together by the strong nuclear force. Gravity is much weaker though.
matter has mass because it is composed of atoms and molecules. most matter is empty space, over ninety percent of it i think but the nuke forces in the atoms bind it so tight it appears to us to be solid.
but for pan-psychism there is no evidence. in fact I willgo so far as to say its impossible. like i said earlier...no nervous system or brain = no feeling or awareness. this isnt hard and I think you are over-thinking it and using too many words that are just philosophy and dont have nothing to do with the science involved in matter having awareness. or not having in this case.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 9:33:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 9:25:58 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/23/2015 9:03:44 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 7:20:33 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 6:50:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 4:48:17 PM, n7 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 1:25:13 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/23/2015 12:52:23 PM, janesix wrote:
Panpsychism is the idea that everything has some level of consciousness, all the way down to individual atoms.

This would mean that everything has free will. It seem that the more awareness an organism has, the more free will it has.

The interesting thing is it is not even known ho wold this idea is, it seems to have been around for a long time.

What are your thoughts?

The exact opposite is true; there is no free-will if Panpsychism is the case. This is because consciousness would just be a property of matter. So, consciousness would completely be dependent upon the mechanic interactions of matter.

Either way, this view is definitely more rational that orthodox Physicalism. The Hard-Problem simply diassapears if consciousness is a part of all matter.

I don't really like how Panpsychism handles it. It doesn't explain why consciousness exists or why everything has it. It states it just is a part of everything.

Why does a material object have mass? Why does an electron have spin? The Naturalist will say "that's just how nature works". What's wrong with Pansychists saying the same thing for why matter has consciousness? Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pansychist (I don't like this view either), but I'm not sure of the strength behind your criticism.

But isn't that what the Hard Problem asks? How and why we have consciousness?

Yes, but it isn't really a "hard" problem if Pansychism is true. It is only a "hard" problem because the material world has no mental or conscious properties at all, so it seems to be a hard pill to swallow that a particular arrangement of atoms can magically cause the qualities of experience. If consciousness is a property of everything, well, then..... No real problem is there?

"And it seems that we can easily conceive of creatures just like us physically and functionally that nonetheless lack consciousness. This indicates that a physical explanation of consciousness is fundamentally incomplete: it leaves out what it is like to be the subject, for the subject. There seems to be an unbridgeable explanatory gap between the physical world and consciousness. All these factors make the hard problem hard." [http://www.iep.utm.edu...]

Basically, the reason there is a Hard-Problem, and the reason we can conceive of P-Zombies is because matter doesn't have the property of consciousness. It is all dead, mindless, consciousnessless atomic interaction... There is no reason why consciousness should exist in such a universe. If consciousness is a property of all matter though, then P-Zombies are impossible. Thus, what makes the Hard-Problem "hard"... Disappears. Either way, I think Panpsychism is a terrible view. It seems to imply that everything is conscious; even my chair.

If you think your coke can being conscious is a harder pill to swallow than the Hard-Problem then I suggest not becoming a Panpsychist lol

Stating 'It just works.' seems like trying to waive an explanation. With physics, we have good ideas on what material objects and electrons are and how they work, some unexplained events will happen.

We have an explanation of how things work but we don't have an explanation as to why they are that way at all. Again, why does an electron spin? Why does gravity attract instead of being a repulsive force? Why does matter have mass?

You have no answer... Just like the Panpsychist. So, its not like your position is any better here is it?

your answers......An electron does not really spin/that is a figure of speech. Spin is actually angular momentum in the electron's probability cloud, which they used to call orbits in the standard model. this movement is cause by the weak nuclear force.

This just pushes the question back. Why does an electron have the property of being able to be influenced by the weak force? We can keep pushing the questions back and eventually you just have to say "that's just how nature works".


Gravity attracts because the gravitons are the particles that carry the force and they pull toward the object, just like the atom's nucleus is held together by the strong nuclear force. Gravity is much weaker though.

Gravitons are speculative.

matter has mass because it is composed of atoms and molecules.

Why do atoms and molecules have mass?

most matter is empty space, over ninety percent of it i think but the nuke forces in the atoms bind it so tight it appears to us to be solid.
but for pan-psychism there is no evidence.

There is no evidence for it, but postulating it eliminates the "hardness" of the Hard-Problem. So, supposing it is true may have some advantages.

in fact I willgo so far as to say its impossible. like i said earlier...no nervous system or brain = no feeling or awareness.

This assumes the brain is outside of consciousness itself without any justification.

this isnt hard and I think you are over-thinking it and using too many words that are just philosophy and dont have nothing to do with the science involved in matter having awareness. or not having in this case.

Philosophy is more important and more fundamental than science, so downplaying philosophy is not going to help your case at all.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/23/2015 11:57:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
On second thought... Panpsychism is riddled with problems just like Orthodox Physicalism so I take back the notion that it is more rational. Panpsychism gets rid of the Hard Problem but at the price of introducing the Combination Problem. While the Combination Problem may be easier to solve in principle than the Hard Problem; at least I don't have to accept that my chair is conscious, or my coke can.
UndeniableReality
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7/24/2015 10:42:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 9:33:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Philosophy is more important and more fundamental than science, so downplaying philosophy is not going to help your case at all.

Though less relevant to the real world...? Philosophy is important and fundamental. That does not imply that constructing syllogisms about idealism or discussion panpsychism is important or fundamental.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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7/24/2015 10:53:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/23/2015 11:57:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
On second thought... Panpsychism is riddled with problems just like Orthodox Physicalism so I take back the notion that it is more rational. Panpsychism gets rid of the Hard Problem but at the price of introducing the Combination Problem. While the Combination Problem may be easier to solve in principle than the Hard Problem; at least I don't have to accept that my chair is conscious, or my coke can.

It's definitely an interesting problem, but I think it can be solved quite easily. To begin with, there's no reason to think that all levels of consciousness are reducible to the experiences of their individual components. A complex system, like our brain, involves interaction between all the components at once, which may produce a fundamentally different experience. In other words, it might not be possible to simply add up the experiences of the particles in our brain to come up with a description of "what it's like to be human". It may be necessary to consider them as part of a system with an identity all of its own. If this is true, then there would (presumably) be virtually an infinite number of conscious descriptions corresponding to virtually an infinite number of systems, so it would be unnecessary to explain how the brain recognizes that it is a coherent unit, because all the combinations are tried, and some combinations are able to ponder their existence while some aren't. So our consciousness amounts to a sort of selection bias or anthropic principle acting on the set of all possible combinations.

Now, the only question which I feel still needs to be addressed (but which isn't unique to panphychism) is how our brain seems to produce only one self-recognizing consciousness, given that its structure would seem to allow for many others. In other words, is there a consciousness which represents only the left side of my brain? If so, where is it? If not, why? I think the answer might reside in the fact that the consciousness of lesser regions of the brain would in a sense be "subsumed" or "dominated" by larger, more coherent regions, so that our consciousness is simply the largest consciousness which is still coherent. I really don't know though.