Total Posts:45|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Can suicide be a rational choice?

n7
Posts: 1,360
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2015 12:44:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You cannot know the future, so I'd say it isn't rational most of the time. Although, there can be events where there is no good foreseeable outcome. For example, if you are need to die so others can live such as the case with the Chernobyl Three. The three worker's suicide was rational, as it saved the lives of millions.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2015 1:48:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Yes.

And even if it isn't so what ? we should what force people to live against their will even though they don't want too ? because we deem their view irrational ?

Sometimes I wonder from some groups where their anti suicide/anti choice postion is coming from, a concern for well being ? or a concern for the system that the slaves/exploitative/workers might revolt in and think well if this is life I don't want it, f*ck it, im done.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Chaosism
Posts: 2,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2015 12:28:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 1:48:56 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Yes.

I agree: it can be.

And even if it isn't so what ? we should what force people to live against their will even though they don't want too ? because we deem their view irrational ?

Say a person is suffering from a high fever or something and is experiencing powerful illusions, and that this person is walking towards a cliff's edge. Would you intervene and stop them? I would guess so, since they are not acting of sound mind, even though they are performing their actions at their own will.

I imagine that a good deal (if not a majority) of suicides stem from emotion, rather than rational thought. Under the weight of any extreme emotion, people are not thinking with their "clear mind", so to act upon this emotion is to essentially act under the influence of an altered state of mind.

To present another example, say a friend of yours went through a terrible breakup, and that he is absolutely fuming. In his anger, he has decided to go to and smash up his own car with a crowbar because it was a gift from her. Would you stop your friend from doing so? I would think so, because he is acting out of emotion and not rationally. If he performed this act, he would almost certainly regret it when returned to his normal state of mind.

Sometimes I wonder from some groups where their anti suicide/anti choice postion is coming from, a concern for well being ? or a concern for the system that the slaves/exploitative/workers might revolt in and think well if this is life I don't want it, f*ck it, im done.

I believe it is normal human nature to be adverse to the death of others. I definitely think it should be permitted as long as it is a rational decision and the repercussions to others have been considered. If someone is dying to a terminal disease, for instance, I am perfectly fine with "skipping to the end" and preventing the further suffering that would be inevitable otherwise.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 3:26:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Permanent solution to a temporary problem.

People consider it when they are deeply depressed.

While the legality is argued to end pain, Physician assisted suicide prescriptions are sought by patients because they fear being a burden upon their families and fear of financial ruin. Very very few mention pain.

While these prescriptions are gotten some are not taken for years.

No legislation will stop self inflicted euthanasia. If someone wants to die, they can and will.

But the idea to allow a healer to administer death as a treatment is a sad condition of the most backwards of morals. A symptom of how little society values life. We seem to be looking for any excuse to kill humans, Be it the elderly, the sick, the unborn, ect... But hoot and hollar about the killing of a lion. In my mind that is jacked up morality.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 4:14:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

How so? Most Christians believe people who commit suicide go to hell.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 6:59:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 4:14:21 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

How so? Most Christians believe people who commit suicide go to hell.

Then their fear of Hell is more intense than their faith in God, therefore they are not really good christians imo...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 7:11:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 3:26:04 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Permanent solution to a temporary problem.

What makes you think all people who commit suicide do so in response to a temporary problem?

People consider it when they are deeply depressed.

Some people just make the rational choice to end their life, Often it is a symptom of depression, but not always. I don't think Socrates was depressed.

While the legality is argued to end pain, Physician assisted suicide prescriptions are sought by patients because they fear being a burden upon their families and fear of financial ruin. Very very few mention pain.

That doesn't mean it's not a rational choice. What's wrong with me wanting to die a few years sooner in order to save my family from the heart ache and financial ruin of watching my slow death?

While these prescriptions are gotten some are not taken for years.

No legislation will stop self inflicted euthanasia. If someone wants to die, they can and will.

But the idea to allow a healer to administer death as a treatment is a sad condition of the most backwards of morals. A symptom of how little society values life. We seem to be looking for any excuse to kill humans, Be it the elderly, the sick, the unborn, ect... But hoot and hollar about the killing of a lion. In my mind that is jacked up morality.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 2:55:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.

Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?

The quality of life present in short is simply not worth living.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Ichilicious
Posts: 11
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 4:01:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes, I believe suicide can be a rational choice. On the other hand, the definition of rational differs from person to person. Suicide is simply a choice one makes in life; just like any other choice.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 4:05:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Self immolation can be a rational action, especially for martyrdom.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 8:00:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 2:55:14 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.

Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?

The quality of life present in short is simply not worth living.

What implies that the quality of life is not worth living?
SlobodnaDusa
Posts: 8
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 8:19:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 3:26:04 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Permanent solution to a temporary problem.

People consider it when they are deeply depressed.

While the legality is argued to end pain, Physician assisted suicide prescriptions are sought by patients because they fear being a burden upon their families and fear of financial ruin. Very very few mention pain.

While these prescriptions are gotten some are not taken for years.

No legislation will stop self inflicted euthanasia. If someone wants to die, they can and will.

But the idea to allow a healer to administer death as a treatment is a sad condition of the most backwards of morals. A symptom of how little society values life. We seem to be looking for any excuse to kill humans, Be it the elderly, the sick, the unborn, ect... But hoot and hollar about the killing of a lion. In my mind that is jacked up morality.

You're generalising. There are a number of reasons why someone would want to end their life and a number of problems which they may face, and every individual situation is different. I agree that it would be problematic to euthanise someone who is deeply depressed or in a mental state which is unfit, but that's why euthanasia should be (and is, in the countries where it's legal) done only when there is no other solution, after a period of counselling and psychological evaluation.

Your point about "jacked up morality," is at the crux of the problem with the anti-euthanasia position, I think. It's your idea of jacked up morality. So you will not euthanise anyone or be euthanised, and that's fine for you, but your personal moral views are irrelevant to whether something is objectively rational or should be legal.
Mir, ljubav i komunizam
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 9:15:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 8:00:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:55:14 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.

Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?

The quality of life present in short is simply not worth living.

What implies that the quality of life is not worth living?

Its not an implication. Its the constant actual pain meds, chemo, body failing, inability to dress yourself or relieve yourself without needing some one else to help you, inability to eat what you want, drink what you want, go where you want because you are quite possibly tied to a machine or your current life extending treatment won't allow for it. Those aren't implications of detractors. Those are real detractors from some one's quality of life.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
j50wells
Posts: 345
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2015 10:53:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You'd have to define rational. Rational means different things in different cultures. Stoning kids because they back-bited their parents is rational in the Bible. Cutting 9 month old babies is rational in America. Seiging cities and then killing every person in that city with the sword was rational to Genghis Kahn. Sleeping with prostitutes, repenting, and then going back into the ministry was rational for Jimmy Swaggart. Eating other people was rational for the Donner party. Rationalism is different for each situation. You would never kill someone, but if ISIS was marching through your neighborhood and raping women, young and old, you'd shoot at them if you had a gun.
So, to get you your point, you'd have to define rational
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2015 12:29:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I had to choose between living in oppression and slavery or being free. I would choose suicide over oppression and slavery. What would be the point of living after having lived free.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2015 1:46:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2015 9:15:02 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 8:00:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:55:14 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.

Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?

The quality of life present in short is simply not worth living.

What implies that the quality of life is not worth living?


Its not an implication. Its the constant actual pain meds, chemo, body failing, inability to dress yourself or relieve yourself without needing some one else to help you, inability to eat what you want, drink what you want, go where you want because you are quite possibly tied to a machine or your current life extending treatment won't allow for it. Those aren't implications of detractors. Those are real detractors from some one's quality of life.

I agree that those are real physical detractors to someone's quality of life. However, I fail to see how that implies life is not worth living.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2015 3:21:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2015 1:46:40 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 8/1/2015 9:15:02 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 8:00:55 PM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 8/1/2015 2:55:14 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/1/2015 12:31:29 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Suicide is irrational, hence people contemplate it when they are in an emotionally agitated state, and forgo it when they calm down.

I am hard pressed to find a coherent reason to commit suicide.

Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?

The quality of life present in short is simply not worth living.

What implies that the quality of life is not worth living?


Its not an implication. Its the constant actual pain meds, chemo, body failing, inability to dress yourself or relieve yourself without needing some one else to help you, inability to eat what you want, drink what you want, go where you want because you are quite possibly tied to a machine or your current life extending treatment won't allow for it. Those aren't implications of detractors. Those are real detractors from some one's quality of life.

I agree that those are real physical detractors to someone's quality of life. However, I fail to see how that implies life is not worth living.

"Don't have much experience with terminally ill people, do you?"--- is this assessment correct, btw? I can understand how you might fail to see that which doesn't occur (physically) to you, or how you might not understand it if you haven't seen it in regular occurrence.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 6:59:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

Yes.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 7:00:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

No, because the Bible takes a position against suicide; Saying it's a sin and thus, one would go to hell if they did so.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 4:23:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:00:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

No, because the Bible takes a position against suicide; Saying it's a sin and thus, one would go to hell if they did so.

The Bible also says God forgives anything for which you repent. Also, a lot of people (most people actualy) commit suicide because they are victims crushed by the weight of their own miserable lifes. I think God can not punish these people that already have suffered so much in their lifes, because this would be absolutely irreconcilable with the idea of an all-loving God.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,035
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 7:03:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:23:34 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:00:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

No, because the Bible takes a position against suicide; Saying it's a sin and thus, one would go to hell if they did so.

The Bible also says God forgives anything for which you repent.

Repenting is an act done by a living person. If you're dead, you can't repent. So, it logically follows that if you die from your attempted suicide, you'll have no chance to repent.

Also, a lot of people (most people actualy) commit suicide because they are victims crushed by the weight of their own miserable lifes.

I can agree with that.

I think God can not punish these people that already have suffered so much in their lifes, because this would be absolutely irreconcilable with the idea of an all-loving God.

We are talking about the same God who created Hell right? Yahweh is not an all-loving God, the OT is proof enough of that. In fact, he was very jealous and downright cruel at times.

The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is"self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. We should say with the psalmist, "My times are in your hands" (Psalm 31:15).

God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21). Suicide, the taking of one"s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God"s gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God"s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life.

While the Bible does say that "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13) You can't necessarily call on the name of the Lord if you're already dead, and if you're dead due to self-murder, you died while committing a sin.

Also, if we could repent after death, then what's the point of repenting during life? The notion defeats itself.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/3/2015 10:42:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 7:03:06 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 8/3/2015 4:23:34 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:00:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

No, because the Bible takes a position against suicide; Saying it's a sin and thus, one would go to hell if they did so.

The Bible also says God forgives anything for which you repent.

Repenting is an act done by a living person. If you're dead, you can't repent. So, it logically follows that if you die from your attempted suicide, you'll have no chance to repent.

And yet, there's plenty of ways to commit suicide in which you can repent seconds or minutes before actually dying. A lot of popular suicide methods like wrist cutting, pill eating, and even hanging, give you time to repent before you die.

Also, I'm curious. From where did you get that souls can not repent?

Also, a lot of people (most people actualy) commit suicide because they are victims crushed by the weight of their own miserable lifes.

I can agree with that.

I think God can not punish these people that already have suffered so much in their lifes, because this would be absolutely irreconcilable with the idea of an all-loving God.

We are talking about the same God who created Hell right? Yahweh is not an all-loving God, the OT is proof enough of that. In fact, he was very jealous and downright cruel at times.

The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is"self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. We should say with the psalmist, "My times are in your hands" (Psalm 31:15).

God is the giver of life. He gives, and He takes away (Job 1:21). Suicide, the taking of one"s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God"s gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God"s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life.

While the Bible does say that "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13) You can't necessarily call on the name of the Lord if you're already dead, and if you're dead due to self-murder, you died while committing a sin.

Also, if we could repent after death, then what's the point of repenting during life? The notion defeats itself.

I can agree that God is not all loving, but you know, generaly, the people that believe heaven exists (I was directing my first comment to them) also believe God is all loving despite your sound scriptural quotations.

As for being able to both suicide and repent while being alive, I think it is settled that this is possible. But for the part that souls can not repent. Why would they not be able to do this? I mean, the whole point is repenting, not necesarily repenting while being alive, or is it?
sadolite
Posts: 8,838
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 12:38:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2015 4:23:34 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 8/3/2015 7:00:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 7/31/2015 5:48:04 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 7/31/2015 12:15:21 AM, Dookieman wrote:
Post your thoughts.

If heaven exists, then it is the most rational one.

No, because the Bible takes a position against suicide; Saying it's a sin and thus, one would go to hell if they did so.

The Bible also says God forgives anything for which you repent. Also, a lot of people (most people actualy) commit suicide because they are victims crushed by the weight of their own miserable lifes. I think God can not punish these people that already have suffered so much in their lifes, because this would be absolutely irreconcilable with the idea of an all-loving God.

"The Bible also says God forgives anything for which you repent." Uh it doesn't work that way. You repent after sin not before. That's like saying you are thinking about stealing something, asking for forgiveness and then going out and stealing.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 12:59:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes it is.

Suffering is something no individual wants to endure everyday of his life. Particularly extreme suffering. Suicide is a way to escape this suffering and to attain peace.

I think suicide can be a rational choice (though I do believe it is only truly justified on very rare ocassions).
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 1:05:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
From a hylopathic perspective, all things commit a form of suicide when they experience an enthalpy threshold (energy content threshold), by breaking apart.

Dissociation or fragmentation is a way of reducing stress.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/4/2015 1:15:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2015 1:05:04 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
From a hylopathic perspective, all things commit a form of suicide when they experience an enthalpy threshold (energy content threshold), by breaking apart.

Dissociation or fragmentation is a way of reducing stress.

The formation of new bonds can also occur as a result of hitting a enthalpy threshold, resulting in the formation of new chemical substance.