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Theism and an Infinite Universe

tejretics
Posts: 6,081
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9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite. In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe. According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number. That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/16/2015 12:16:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite.

- One, infinite as in without conventional geometric borders, not really actually infinite! Two, there are theories that suggest the opposite as well.

In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe. According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

- The guy is confusing mathematical probability with physical one. Even if the Universe is infinite in space, it still is finite in matter! That is, no such thing as infinite number of planets.

This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number.

- Read this like 5 times, didn't get it!

That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

- So much equivocation in this paragraph. I don't think that this reasoning is sound at all. Would a square circle exist in an infinite Universe?!
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tejretics
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9/16/2015 12:28:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 12:16:48 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite.

- One, infinite as in without conventional geometric borders, not really actually infinite! Two, there are theories that suggest the opposite as well.

Theories such as the multiverse and many-worlds hypothesis suggest a "really actually" infinite universe.


In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe. According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

- The guy is confusing mathematical probability with physical one. Even if the Universe is infinite in space, it still is finite in matter! That is, no such thing as infinite number of planets.

A multiverse would entail infinite matter and energy.


This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number.

- Read this like 5 times, didn't get it!

Basically, modal realism -- if anything is physically possible, or at least metaphysically possible, and has a non-zero chance of being true, then it does exist in some form in an infinite universe.


That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

- So much equivocation in this paragraph. I don't think that this reasoning is sound at all. Would a square circle exist in an infinite Universe?!

A square circle is metaphysically impossible. I'm referring to metaphysically possible things. Obviously that depends on how you define "God." Maybe not an omnipotent one, but a very powerful, intelligent being who can destroy planets, for instance.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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9/16/2015 12:45:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 12:28:08 PM, tejretics wrote:

Theories such as the multiverse and many-worlds hypothesis suggest a "really actually" infinite universe.

- Not in the sense you imagine.

A multiverse would entail infinite matter and energy.

- NOPE. Not as far as physics are concerned. Infinite energy is physically impossible. I think you should stick to serious physics, & leave these theories until you can grasp what exactly is it they entail.

Basically, modal realism -- if anything is physically possible, or at least metaphysically possible, and has a non-zero chance of being true, then it does exist in some form in an infinite universe.

- An infinite Universe could be made out of the same exact thing, as it could be made out of a finite number of them.

A square circle is metaphysically impossible. I'm referring to metaphysically possible things.

- Mathematically, yes. Physically, not necessarily. That beside the fact that Energy is finite, so this whole discussion is pointless.

Obviously that depends on how you define "God." Maybe not an omnipotent one, but a very powerful, intelligent being who can destroy planets, for instance.

- One, what's the issue with an Omnipotent God? Two, God is singularity, so this reasoning doesn't really apply, unless you imagine God to be part of this multiverse!
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skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,862
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9/17/2015 2:20:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 12:28:08 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 9/16/2015 12:16:48 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite.

- One, infinite as in without conventional geometric borders, not really actually infinite! Two, there are theories that suggest the opposite as well.y

Theories such as the multiverse and many-worlds hypothesis suggest a "really actually" infinite universe.

You do realize how patently absurd it is to think it's possible "for a really actually infinite universe", Its equivalent to claiming, I know there is something in universe that humans will never discover because it's at the point where infinite universe ends....oh wait if its infinite, then you couldn't possibly know it is. Kind of self defeating.
In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe. According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

- The guy is confusing mathematical probability with physical one. Even if the Universe is infinite in space, it still is finite in matter! That is, no such thing as infinite number of planets.
Yeh but, how could you possibly conclude that an infinite in space universe has finite matter?

A multiverse would entail infinite matter and energy.

Why can't multiverse merely be a finite amount of universes that infinitely replace each other. You would have to engrave a signature on each atom to recognize it has finite matter, or "color" each matters "vortices of energy" to document and identify the repetition. Ok that's gotta be a bong hit hypothesis, there's no way it seems reasonable. Lol


This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number.

- Read this like 5 times, didn't get it!

Basically, modal realism -- if anything is physically possible, or at least metaphysically possible, and has a non-zero chance of being true, then it does exist in some form in an infinite universe.


That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

- So much equivocation in this paragraph. I don't think that this reasoning is sound at all. Would a square circle exist in an infinite Universe?!

A square circle is metaphysically impossible. I'm referring to metaphysically possible things. Obviously that depends on how you define "God." Maybe not an omnipotent one, but a very powerful, intelligent being who can destroy planets, for instance.
n7
Posts: 1,358
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9/17/2015 8:17:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite. In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe. According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number. That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

You're mixing physical possibility with metaphysical possibility. God isn't a physical being, so even with an infinite amount of space for an infinite amount of physical events, God wouldn't be in the question.
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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/18/2015 12:19:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite.

I'm not sure what particular theory you are referring to, but there is a much more well known, and logically convincing theory that says an actual infinite is impossible and even if it were possible, there is no way we could know of it.

In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe.

I don't think that's accurate, multiverse theory does not "suggest" an actual spatial infinite, and even if it did, multiverse theory is nonsense anyway.

According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

Nick Bostrom's ideas are "if/then" thought exercises, but the "if" of the existence of an actual infinite is logically contradictory.

This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number. That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

Therein lies the problem, an actual infinite is metaphysically impossible, hence his "if/then" analysis is self refuting. When you start with an "if" regarding the actual existence of a metaphysical impossibility, you can't logically follow that with whether or not the consequences are metaphysically possible, the initial premise of the analysis is logically flawed from the get go.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,862
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9/18/2015 1:07:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/18/2015 12:19:52 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
There's a well known theory that suggests that the universe is spatially infinite.

I'm not sure what particular theory you are referring to, but there is a much more well known, and logically convincing theory that says an actual infinite is impossible and even if it were possible, there is no way we could know of it.

In fact, even theories such as the Level I and Level II multiverse suggest a spatially infinite universe.

I don't think that's accurate, multiverse theory does not "suggest" an actual spatial infinite, and even if it did, multiverse theory is nonsense anyway.

According to Nick Bostrom, "If there are an infinite number of planets then there will be--with probability one--and infinite number of people, since each planet has finite non-zero chance of giving rise to intelligent life. In fact, in an infinite universe it seems that there will be an infinite number of people spontaneously materializing in gas clouds or from black hole radiation, since the probability of such occurrences, although extremely small, is nevertheless finitely greater than zero and would thus be expected to happen infinitely many times in a universe that contains an infinite number of gas clouds and black holes." [http://www.nickbostrom.com...]

Nick Bostrom's ideas are "if/then" thought exercises, but the "if" of the existence of an actual infinite is logically contradictory.

This would suggest that if there is a non-zero chance of a physical event occurring, then anything that exists in one metaphysically possible world exists in at least infinite in number. That means, if there are -- for instance -- infinite universes, then infinite of them would have been caused by an omnipotent being such as "God." But take a spatially infinite universe. If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

Therein lies the problem, an actual infinite is metaphysically impossible, hence his "if/then" analysis is self refuting. When you start with an "if" regarding the actual existence of a metaphysical impossibility, you can't logically follow that with whether or not the consequences are metaphysically possible, the initial premise of the analysis is logically flawed from the get go.

Based on what I've read, the if/then aspect is applied only to agreed upon "facts". People who haven't gotten past freshman or sophomore logic classes usually make this mistake. It falls under the category, mostly, as a personal opinion fallacy in the context of a syllogism. So you have an accurate representation from my point of view and what the basis of Aristotle's use for syllogism. Since he designed it, I'm going with him on its use.
fromantle
Posts: 274
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9/25/2015 2:39:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The concept of infinity makes anything possible.
The old adage about monkeys typing out the works of shakespeare by chance comes to mind. Maths men and physic boffins love this sort of speculation, but how does it satisfy the human mind. Well its a poor substitute for the truth in a grim world.
Rather like me getting excited because of my immortality since my molecule will live on after my death.
It enables us to forget the real world and float off into a fantasy that nobody can queston and protects us from facing day to day problems.
One of the reasons I like to play chess is the escape from reality.
There are indeed a billion possible truths but we just live in one.
skipsaweirdo
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9/25/2015 4:28:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/25/2015 2:39:33 PM, fromantle wrote:
The concept of infinity makes anything possible.
The old adage about monkeys typing out the works of shakespeare by chance comes to mind. Maths men and physic boffins love this sort of speculation, but how does it satisfy the human mind. Well its a poor substitute for the truth in a grim world.
Rather like me getting excited because of my immortality since my molecule will live on after my death.
It enables us to forget the real world and float off into a fantasy that nobody can queston and protects us from facing day to day problems.

Quite honestly, I've yet to meet a person whose view of an afterlife had anything what so ever to do with escaping day to day problems. It always baffles me that people who make these types of statements don't realize that for the most part its a reflection of themselves. There might be people who openly admit, "I live after I die so who cares how I'm currently living", though I've never had the pleasure of meeting such a person. All "afterlifers" I know seem to look at life with such joy it sometimes is downright irritating. Lol.
One of the reasons I like to play chess is the escape from reality.

I commend you for finding an escape from reality. I personally find doing things I enjoy a part of reality. But I do have one slight aspect of "reality" that most people don't realize until later in life. I haven't lived in the "worrying about bills getting paid" reality since I turned 40. Of course, I'm not implying that working for a living coincides with worrying about bills getting paid, but most people do have this reality which by all means needs an escaping from , from time to time at least.
There are indeed a billion possible truths but we just live in one.
Now that's definitely a certainty in my book.
drpiek
Posts: 589
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10/1/2015 6:20:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/16/2015 9:43:42 AM, tejretics wrote:
If there is a non-zero metaphysical probability that God exists, does a spatially infinite universe entail that God exists? That is, would the premise if the universe is spatially infinite, an omnipotent, intelligent being exists be accurate?

Only if God were a product of the Universe instead of the other way around. If being God requires transcending the time and space, then the attributes of time and space cannot be used to prove the existence of God.