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Who has the burden of proof?

Furyan5
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11/1/2015 8:43:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Lol, prove it.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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11/2/2015 3:48:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Agreed.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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11/2/2015 4:15:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/1/2015 8:43:06 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Lol, prove it.

The fact that you are saying for me to prove it proves my point. If the burden of proof is not on the one making the claim, why ask for proof? Also, peove me wrong.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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11/2/2015 4:16:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 3:48:28 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Agreed.

Thank you.
famousdebater
Posts: 3,940
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11/2/2015 8:24:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Not necessarily. The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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11/2/2015 7:07:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Both have a BoP to support thier claim. The fact that A has a greater burden doesn't absolve B from any BoP. Further more B can't use A's failure of sustaining A's BoP as evidence that B's claim is true. That would be an argument of ignorance.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/2/2015 8:59:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Money.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/2/2015 9:00:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 8:24:02 AM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Not necessarily. The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

No, actually the bop is on you too if you claim that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
kp98
Posts: 729
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11/2/2015 9:11:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that the person making the claim has the BoP - but if one is wise that shouldn't be a problem.

For example if I claimed god doesn't exist then I should provide at least some justification for that claim. Being too lazy for that, what I would do is say 'The Pope claims god exists - but where is his proof?' and shift the BoP away.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/2/2015 9:15:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 8:59:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Money.

http://imgur.com...
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
famousdebater
Posts: 3,940
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11/2/2015 9:16:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

No, actually the bop is on you too if you claim that.

False. Whilst this is a valid response, it is an expected response to that claim. The burden of proof can be shared in that scenario but it isn't always. I can list examples of debates where the instigator rejects the claim that God exists and the BOP remains on the theist to prove the existence of God. I am on my phone at the moment so I wont list those example now but if you require me to do so, I will post examples when I get access to a computer. Therefore, the BOP isn't always on the person making the claim.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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11/2/2015 9:21:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 9:15:12 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 11/2/2015 8:59:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Money.

http://imgur.com...

Deficit
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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11/2/2015 9:25:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is no reason to believe something is true until evidence has been provided, by definition. So before we have reason to accept something as fact, the one making the claim (or whoever else) has the burden to show that their claim is correct. Until this has been done, the claim is neither proven nor disproven, and therefore there is no reason to operate under the assumption that the claim is true, in which case the one positing the claim has to accept that their claim isn't going to be accepted by those who don't want to make unjustified assumptions. So the burden is on them to give some reason for their conclusion if they want people to have reason to accept it, lest the claim be dismissed as conjecture by reasonable people.
Mhykiel
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11/2/2015 10:05:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 9:25:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
There is no reason to believe something is true until evidence has been provided, by definition. So before we have reason to accept something as fact, the one making the claim (or whoever else) has the burden to show that their claim is correct. Until this has been done, the claim is neither proven nor disproven, and therefore there is no reason to operate under the assumption that the claim is true, in which case the one positing the claim has to accept that their claim isn't going to be accepted by those who don't want to make unjustified assumptions. So the burden is on them to give some reason for their conclusion if they want people to have reason to accept it, lest the claim be dismissed as conjecture by reasonable people.

Ridiculous. You say things like 'by definition' but you must be using a different dictionary than the rest of us to define 'true'.

Only time I have seen this kind of drivel is when an empiricist is defining justification. People accept as true many things that lack evidence. I'm sure your own world view is full of them. Multiverse, flow of time, other minds ect...

If you truly thought what you are preaching you would be a solipsist and nihilist.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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11/2/2015 10:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

No it isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/2/2015 10:23:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 10:18:52 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

No it isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Well, of course I might be wrong. But restating your position is not an argument in favor of it.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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11/2/2015 10:25:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 10:23:18 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 11/2/2015 10:18:52 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

No it isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Well, of course I might be wrong. But restating your position is not an argument in favor of it.

Saying that I am wrong does not make me wrong.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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11/2/2015 10:28:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 8:24:02 AM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Not necessarily. The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

You are wrong. The burden of peoof is on thge one making the claim.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/2/2015 10:29:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 10:25:54 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 11/2/2015 10:23:18 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 11/2/2015 10:18:52 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

No it isn't. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
Well, of course I might be wrong. But restating your position is not an argument in favor of it.

Saying that I am wrong does not make me wrong.

Dude, my original commnt was my argument to that end.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
famousdebater
Posts: 3,940
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11/2/2015 10:31:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 10:28:31 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 11/2/2015 8:24:02 AM, famousdebater wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Not necessarily. The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

You are wrong. The burden of peoof is on thge one making the claim.

How? You havent responded to what I said at all.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
fire_man
Posts: 23
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11/2/2015 10:55:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. : :

I don't need any proof when I listen to someone's claim. I sit back and enjoy the claim unless it's an attack about me and my experiences. No one can make a claim based on my experience because it is impossible for the claimant to have experienced the same exact experiences that I had.

For instance, when someone calls me a false prophet, they have no way of knowing if I'm a true prophet or not. They would have no evidence to prove that I'm a true prophet or not.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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11/3/2015 12:01:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 10:05:47 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 11/2/2015 9:25:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
There is no reason to believe something is true until evidence has been provided, by definition. So before we have reason to accept something as fact, the one making the claim (or whoever else) has the burden to show that their claim is correct. Until this has been done, the claim is neither proven nor disproven, and therefore there is no reason to operate under the assumption that the claim is true, in which case the one positing the claim has to accept that their claim isn't going to be accepted by those who don't want to make unjustified assumptions. So the burden is on them to give some reason for their conclusion if they want people to have reason to accept it, lest the claim be dismissed as conjecture by reasonable people.

Ridiculous. You say things like 'by definition' but you must be using a different dictionary than the rest of us to define 'true'.

Only time I have seen this kind of drivel is when an empiricist is defining justification. People accept as true many things that lack evidence. I'm sure your own world view is full of them. Multiverse, flow of time, other minds ect...

If you truly thought what you are preaching you would be a solipsist and nihilist.

I say "by definition" because "evidence" means "reason for belief".
Nac
Posts: 326
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11/3/2015 12:31:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 9:16:09 PM, famousdebater wrote:
The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

No, actually the bop is on you too if you claim that.

False. Whilst this is a valid response, it is an expected response to that claim. The burden of proof can be shared in that scenario but it isn't always. I can list examples of debates where the instigator rejects the claim that God exists and the BOP remains on the theist to prove the existence of God. I am on my phone at the moment so I wont list those example now but if you require me to do so, I will post examples when I get access to a computer. Therefore, the BOP isn't always on the person making the claim.

To reject something is not a claim against something, if I understand correctly.

Your example is, by this metric, irrelevant. I would definitely agree that it is not as simplistic as the OP makes it sound.

In my eyes, the BoP is decided based upon the specific position held, and the resolution. If a position entails no claim, then it has no burden. If the resolution is about knowledge, which I generally define as a true belief with infallible justification, then both sides possess a burden. If the resolution is about the most reasonable position, positive claims hold a burden.

This is generally how I interpret the BoP, at least nowadays.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2015 12:32:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 9:16:09 PM, famousdebater wrote:
The Burden Of Proof is not always on the person making the claim. If I claim that god doesn't exist in a debate, the BOP tends to remain on the theist to prove God's existence.

No, actually the bop is on you too if you claim that.

False. Whilst this is a valid response, it is an expected response to that claim. The burden of proof can be shared in that scenario but it isn't always. I can list examples of debates where the instigator rejects the claim that God exists and the BOP remains on the theist to prove the existence of God. I am on my phone at the moment so I wont list those example now but if you require me to do so, I will post examples when I get access to a computer. Therefore, the BOP isn't always on the person making the claim.

You aren't just saying that the pro hasn't made their case for the existence of God, you are saying that God doesn't exist. You have back up that claim
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2015 12:34:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/2/2015 9:15:12 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 11/2/2015 8:59:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Money.

http://imgur.com...

Incidentally, this is one of my most favorite movies EVER.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/3/2015 12:56:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/3/2015 12:34:31 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/2/2015 9:15:12 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 11/2/2015 8:59:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/2/2015 4:32:41 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

That is to simplistic.
If A claims the theory of relativity is true and B claims the theory of relativity is false, both are making a claim. B, however, goes against scientific consensus and therefore has the burden of proof or at least a far greater burden than A has.

Money.

http://imgur.com...

Incidentally, this is one of my most favorite movies EVER.

So, I got that goin' for me, which is nice.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
CorieMike
Posts: 67
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11/3/2015 2:12:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 1:29:05 AM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I think the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

What if I said there is no burden of proof? It all depends on if you want to convince someone of your beliefs or not.
****Wisdom Begins In Wonder - Socrates****
The path of sound credence is through the thick forest of skepticism - George Jean Nathan
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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11/3/2015 6:41:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Now, let me be clear that I don't think the default position is to assume that something is not the case until evidence has been provided. I simply think that if someone is making a positive claim, then they must provide evidence as to why we should deviate from neutrality. It's not up to anyone else to prove that we should remain at neutrality, because making assumptions is, by definition, not justified.