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Modern Dualism

Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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11/7/2015 5:53:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Imagine, the Universe is divided into two kinds of matter:
1. The Physical
2. The Spiritual

Basic dualistic stuff, right? The difference, however, is that today we're gonna be giving "spiritual" a definition.

The definition of "physical" is pretty straightforward, so I won't bother. I will define spiritual, however, as information. It is dependent upon the physical to exist. Whether it actually exists is up for dispute. So spirit/information in a state of semi-existence.
Thoughts?
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kp98
Posts: 729
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11/7/2015 7:00:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Doesn't work for me at all. Information is definitely part of the physical realm, although perhaps it wasn't really noticed by most people until relatively recently. For example, information obeys known laws just as the rest of the physical world does. Information is not mysterious nor beyond scientific/empirical investigation.

'Information' is like 'energy' - you can separate energy from the rest of the physical realm, call energy 'spiritual' and call the resultant split 'dualism', but I don't think that would be produce anything useful.

Traditionally, dualism involves a realm that operates outside of known - or even knowable - laws. Information isn't 'different enough' from the 'conventionally physical' to constitute a separete realm, not without weaking dualism to not meaning anything.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/7/2015 7:30:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:53:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Imagine, the Universe is divided into two kinds of matter:
1. The Physical
2. The Spiritual

Basic dualistic stuff, right? The difference, however, is that today we're gonna be giving "spiritual" a definition.

The definition of "physical" is pretty straightforward, so I won't bother. I will define spiritual, however, as information. It is dependent upon the physical to exist. Whether it actually exists is up for dispute. So spirit/information in a state of semi-existence.
Thoughts?

If you believe that anything close a traditionally conceived God exists then you can't hold that all "spiritual" "non-physical" stuff is dependent on the physical. Because then you believe that God is dependent on the physical world, not the other way around.
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ShabShoral
Posts: 3,227
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11/9/2015 3:03:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:53:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Imagine, the Universe is divided into two kinds of matter:
1. The Physical
2. The Spiritual

Basic dualistic stuff, right? The difference, however, is that today we're gonna be giving "spiritual" a definition.

The definition of "physical" is pretty straightforward, so I won't bother. I will define spiritual, however, as information. It is dependent upon the physical to exist. Whether it actually exists is up for dispute. So spirit/information in a state of semi-existence.
Thoughts?

That's the opposite of dualism. A substance, as defined by everyone after Aristotle, is "that which is conceived independently of all else." The concept of a "dependent substance" is a contradiction in terms - you would have to default to monism.
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kp98
Posts: 729
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11/9/2015 3:38:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
that which is conceived independently of all else.
Not seen that before but it seems a good definition!

I'd guess the plan is/was to get people to accept the equivalence of information with the 'spiritual' and then wham! show information exists (which no one disputes), ergo the spritual exists, and probably god exists along with it.

Or am I being overly cynical?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,068
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11/9/2015 4:22:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 3:38:57 AM, kp98 wrote:
that which is conceived independently of all else.
Not seen that before but it seems a good definition!

I'd guess the plan is/was to get people to accept the equivalence of information with the 'spiritual' and then wham! show information exists (which no one disputes), ergo the spritual exists, and probably god exists along with it.

Incorrect. Simply stating that properties commonly attributed to the spiritual are shared by information.

Or am I being overly cynical?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
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ShabShoral
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11/9/2015 5:07:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 3:38:57 AM, kp98 wrote:
that which is conceived independently of all else.
Not seen that before but it seems a good definition!
I know Descartes and Spinoza used it - it's my favourite.
I'd guess the plan is/was to get people to accept the equivalence of information with the 'spiritual' and then wham! show information exists (which no one disputes), ergo the spritual exists, and probably god exists along with it.

Or am I being overly cynical?

That's probably accurate.
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

~ Skepsikyma <3

"Your idea of good writing is like Spinoza mixed with Heidegger."

~ Dylly Dylly Cat Cat

"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

~ Thett the Mighty

"fvck omg ur face"

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ShabShoral
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11/9/2015 5:08:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 4:22:38 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/9/2015 3:38:57 AM, kp98 wrote:
that which is conceived independently of all else.
Not seen that before but it seems a good definition!

I'd guess the plan is/was to get people to accept the equivalence of information with the 'spiritual' and then wham! show information exists (which no one disputes), ergo the spritual exists, and probably god exists along with it.

Incorrect. Simply stating that properties commonly attributed to the spiritual are shared by information.

Two things with the same qualities are, in effect, the same thing.
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

~ Skepsikyma <3

"Your idea of good writing is like Spinoza mixed with Heidegger."

~ Dylly Dylly Cat Cat

"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

~ Thett the Mighty

"fvck omg ur face"

~ Liz
kp98
Posts: 729
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11/9/2015 5:16:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Incorrect. Simply stating that properties commonly attributed to the spiritual are shared by information.

My mistake.

Those attributes being (presumably):

Whether it actually exists is up for dispute. So spirit/information in a state of semi-existence.

But the existence of informaton is not up for dispute and what semi-existence is I don't know, but 'semi-existence' is hardly commonly attributed to information or the spiritual.

But do go on.
HarveyMeale
Posts: 15
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11/9/2015 7:46:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 7:00:59 PM, kp98 wrote:
Doesn't work for me at all. Information is definitely part of the physical realm, although perhaps it wasn't really noticed by most people until relatively recently. For example, information obeys known laws just as the rest of the physical world does.

How is this so?
kp98
Posts: 729
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11/9/2015 8:55:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 7:46:03 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 11/7/2015 7:00:59 PM, kp98 wrote:
Doesn't work for me at all. Information is definitely part of the physical realm, although perhaps it wasn't really noticed by most people until relatively recently. For example, information obeys known laws just as the rest of the physical world does.

How is this so?

Not quite sure what you are asking me for because I don't think I said anything contentious. May be you have doubts about information being physical? It is much part of the physical realm as, say, energy (and is interconvertible with energy link: http://www.nature.com...)

Appreciation of the physicality of information is something relatively new and it does take a little time to get your head around. I just about get some of it but not enough to do it justice in a post. But 'google is your friend' and you can check it out. This modern interpretations of information has signficance and applications in all sorts of fields, not only in boring computers but in so-called 'holographic' cosmological models.

Information is certainly odd stuff, but not odd enough to be a separate realm in the way dualism demands it. We understand how information works and we have the equations for it, which is not the case for 'spirtual' things.
sdavio
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11/9/2015 9:18:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:53:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
The definition of "physical" is pretty straightforward, so I won't bother.

Please, humour me here. I don't think I've ever seen a definition of 'physical' or 'material' in philosophy which ended up being straightforward nor even coherent.

I will define spiritual, however, as information.

What is the function of defining it this way? Being that we already have the word 'information' to refer to information, it seems that you're trying to attach the word to some religious / occult connotations.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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11/10/2015 2:36:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/7/2015 5:53:10 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Imagine, the Universe is divided into two kinds of matter:
1. The Physical
2. The Spiritual

Basic dualistic stuff, right? The difference, however, is that today we're gonna be giving "spiritual" a definition.

The definition of "physical" is pretty straightforward, so I won't bother. I will define spiritual, however, as information. It is dependent upon the physical to exist. Whether it actually exists is up for dispute. So spirit/information in a state of semi-existence.
Thoughts?

- The problem with all these concepts is primarily the fact that they are not well defined. A similar problem can also be noticed in statements or arguments related to God.
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