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If God doesn't exist...

JohnDWigingham
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12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Where does our sense of moral come from? If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing? What is there to live for if there is no God? When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything. If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth? What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God? It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions? What is the point of living if there is no God?
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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12/15/2015 11:30:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Lots of things, you rob them of property, hinder their self-interest, etc.

What is there to live for if there is no God?

Sex. This is the meaning of life (I'm serious, if you are curious about this I can expound upon it.)

When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially :pointless, as it will never mean anything.

The point of your existence is to have successfully have sex.

As far as this though, to leave the world better than when you came to it.

If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?

Sex (and leave the world better than when you arrived).

What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God? It's like :saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is :no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the :directions?

First question.

What is the point of living if there is no God?

Already answered.

Your inability to understand a world without the existence of your god shows me that you are narrow-minded, but your questioning of this shows that you have the potential to become wise. Keep asking questions, learn :)
Illegalcombatant
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12/15/2015 11:36:58 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

Us.

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Depends on your moral reasoning. Suffice to say if killing some one is not wrong, it doesn't help to add an invisible man outside of our universe and then think to yourself, oh now it's really long cause of the invisible man.

What is there to live for if there is no God?

What is there to live for if there is a GOd ?

When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything.

Still true even if God exists.

If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?

I find it amazing now that people just seem to think unless they are the result of intelligent design then their just isn't any purpose, as if that kind of purpose is the be all and end all of everything.

What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God?

Depends on your moral reasoning. Again see my, inserting invisible man outside of the universe doesn't help morality.

It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions? What is the point of living if there is no God?

I think it time for you start digging deeper on the various issues you bought up, and maybe you will see it isn't so clear cut about God = morality/purpose/life worth living etc etc No God = no morality/no purpose/life not worth living.

IF an all powerful, all knowing God exists, this God among other things even the believer must admit, allowed humans in their ignorance about how the world works to torture and kill one another (that witch is stopped the good harvest), (demon possession) that God sat back while children died and suffered from diseases we later on developed vaccinations and cures against (medical research that came at great expense think of all the dead ends), ...........you get the idea.

This is the God from which you get morality ? purpose ? value ? The reason for living ?

You may want to really think about that. REALLY THINK.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
JohnDWigingham
Posts: 5
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12/15/2015 11:42:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:30:39 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Lots of things, you rob them of property, hinder their self-interest, etc.

What is there to live for if there is no God?

Sex. This is the meaning of life (I'm serious, if you are curious about this I can expound upon it.)

When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially :pointless, as it will never mean anything.

The point of your existence is to have successfully have sex.

As far as this though, to leave the world better than when you came to it.

If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?

Sex (and leave the world better than when you arrived).

What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God? It's like :saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is :no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the :directions?

First question.

What is the point of living if there is no God?

Already answered.

Your inability to understand a world without the existence of your god shows me that you are narrow-minded, but your questioning of this shows that you have the potential to become wise. Keep asking questions, learn :)

If the purpose of life is to reproduce, then from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no right or wrong.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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12/15/2015 11:43:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:42:48 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
If the purpose of life is to reproduce, then from an evolutionary standpoint, there is no right or wrong.

From an evolutionary viewpoint, you could argue morality.

But I was arguing morality from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
JohnDWigingham
Posts: 5
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12/15/2015 11:52:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
But the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a human construct. If you were to kill someone, would it really make sense to feel guilty just because some memorial on the other side of the world (for me) says it's wrong?
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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12/16/2015 2:32:19 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:52:47 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
But the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a human construct. If you were to kill someone, would it really make sense to feel guilty just because some memorial on the other side of the world (for me) says it's wrong?

It does not matter. Whoever has the most power, the United Nations holds that power and therefore can exercise these laws over people's will.
SarcasticMethod
Posts: 32
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12/16/2015 2:34:18 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?
We decide on one.
If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?
That it contributes to unhappiness in general.
What is there to live for if there is no God?
Whatever you like.
When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything.
Meaning comes from within.
If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?
Anything.
What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God?
All beings capable of feelings.
It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions?
Yeah. So?
What is the point of living if there is no God?
To make of it what you want.
WAM
Posts: 139
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12/16/2015 3:15:46 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The problem is that laws such as 'Don't Kill' existed thousands of years before Christianity/Islam/any 'modern' religion was even created. To claim that the reason why such 'laws' exist is because of 'God' is absolutely absurd.

They existed way before that. Seems to be 'human nature'. Of course they were applied as 'moral guidelines' to achieve a way into the afterlife, but also as enforced laws. The purpose of them, however is clear, to implement a functioning society of humans, that live together without harming each other, as a collective group. This is the reason why humans are superior to other organisms. The collected group behaviour. As such it is absolutely logical that 'do not kill each other' is a base moral value and attitude towards the collective, as such actions would harm the collective.

Once again, has nothing to do with 'God' or any other such thing.
JohnDWigingham
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12/16/2015 3:57:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It has actually been proven that babies are born with a sense of moral. From your logic, that's impossible unless they've been educated on right or wrong prior to birth.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
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12/16/2015 4:01:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

Human subconscious.

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

You're breaking the laws of civilized society and will pay the price.

What is there to live for if there is no God?

There's no objective purpose for anyone. Personally I think if you just enjoy your life it's all gone well.

When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything.

They are pointless to you. They might not be pointless to the humans who come after you.

If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth? What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God?

Purpose is subjective, not every human has the same purpose on earth, and it's not abundantly clear at the beginning. Good and bad is decided by a mix of human subconscious and the laws of society.

It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions? What is the point of living if there is no God?

Yes, it's all a human construct. There is no point in living, but most people just want to live a happy life, which is a good enough purpose as any. You can also make up the purpose of your own life [helping people, advancing humanity, etc]. But this all falls into living a happy life.
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Midnight1131
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12/16/2015 4:03:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:

Just saying, you could argue this by replacing god with something just as ridiculous, like the flying spaghetti monster, or lord zenu. Just because you have a basic explanation that works for you doesn't mean it's true.
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SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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12/16/2015 5:10:02 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Who says that morality exists whether there is a god or not?
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Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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12/16/2015 5:18:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

If atheism is true, our own subjective values.

"If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?"

If atheism is true, objectively speaking, absolutely nothing

"What is there to live for if there is no God?"

Entirely subjective

"When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything".

Yep - it never actually meant anything in the first place.

"If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?"

There is absolutely no purpose. Whatever we purpose we give ourselves is subjective.

"What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God?"

Our own subjective desires and ideals.

" It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions?"

Yes it would just be a human construct. So virtuosity, intellect, strength, etc. is actually no better than iniquity, ignorance, weakness, etc.

"What is the point of living if there is no God?"

There isn't any. You must make up your own.
janesix
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12/16/2015 9:34:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from? If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing? What is there to live for if there is no God? When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything. If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth? What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God? It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions? What is the point of living if there is no God?

What is the point of living if there is a God?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/17/2015 1:10:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

Our emotions.

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Do you want your things to be stolen from you? Do you want to be killed? No? So why do you need a God to tell you what's wrong with this?

Have you ever treated someone the way you would have wanted to be treated, and they got mad at you for it? I'm willing to bet they even thought you were an immoral twerp, or something to that effect. This happens because you did what you understood to be morally correct, and your impression of what was morally correct came from what you would have wanted, aka your emotions. Meanwhile the person on the other end is judging the morality of your actions through what they wanted, aka their own desires/emotions. That is where morality comes from. Fortunately, being that we are all the same species our desires are remarkably similar, thus we are able to agree on some very basic things.

If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth?

Whatever you want it to be. Why do you need an invisible man in the sky telling you what your purpose is?

What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God?

What makes something good or bad if there is a God?
WAM
Posts: 139
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12/18/2015 10:40:37 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 5:10:02 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Who says that morality exists whether there is a god or not?

I do... History kind of proofs that......

Unless religion conflicts with itself, as individuals believed in other deities at earlier times that 'strangely' provided them with the same morals as the ones that are currently worshipped. In nearly all cases.

So how can this be? How can Nordic religion have similar moral values as ancient Egyptian religion? 'Crimes' against the collective are punished.

Morals supporting the collective are supported. Why? Because humans are in no way equal to other living beings. They are comparably weak and vulnerable, however have the power of the collective and as such create many against one, support each other and thus benefit. No other living being on earth will collect food for the group. Not even apes do this. If a human would fight barehanded against an ape, the human would most likely loose (depending on the kind of ape of course). However, as the group is the most vital aspect of human evolutionary success, it is logical that humans 'value' aspects of morals that support this, and thus, every human that is brought up, would have morals towards a collective (society) of one kind or another.
SuperHuman
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12/18/2015 2:19:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from? If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing? What is there to live for if there is no God? When we die, all our hard work, our money, and our existence are essentially pointless, as it will never mean anything. If God doesn't exist, what is our purpose on Earth? What makes something good, and something else bad if there is no God? It's like saying the North Pole has always been the North Pole and so has the South. If there is no God, is all our sense of value and worth simply a human construct, like the directions? What is the point of living if there is no God?
Why do you think that the moral is the God? You say "where does the sense of our moral coma from" "If there is no God, so....etc" So you think that only God gave the moral for humanity?) Didn`t you think that moral can be It is given by nature to protect people. What moral gives? What moral says. Try to think that the moral tells, for example that the you can not live with siblings - and why? Because you will born ill child if you will do it with your sibling. So.. Think..
SNP1
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12/18/2015 3:30:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 10:40:37 AM, WAM wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:10:02 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Who says that morality exists whether there is a god or not?

I do... History kind of proofs that......

Unless religion conflicts with itself, as individuals believed in other deities at earlier times that 'strangely' provided them with the same morals as the ones that are currently worshipped. In nearly all cases.

So how can this be? How can Nordic religion have similar moral values as ancient Egyptian religion? 'Crimes' against the collective are punished.

Morals supporting the collective are supported. Why? Because humans are in no way equal to other living beings. They are comparably weak and vulnerable, however have the power of the collective and as such create many against one, support each other and thus benefit. No other living being on earth will collect food for the group. Not even apes do this. If a human would fight barehanded against an ape, the human would most likely loose (depending on the kind of ape of course). However, as the group is the most vital aspect of human evolutionary success, it is logical that humans 'value' aspects of morals that support this, and thus, every human that is brought up, would have morals towards a collective (society) of one kind or another.

None of that actually shows that morality actually exists though.
I recommend studying ethical noncognitivism.
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WAM
Posts: 139
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12/18/2015 3:43:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 3:30:03 PM, SNP1 wrote:
None of that actually shows that morality actually exists though.
I recommend studying ethical noncognitivism.

The problem is that I did not state a ethical claim. I looked at the issue through history. Historically, all religions and societies have a very similar codex, which supports the collective. There is no doubt about this, this is true. Otherwise humans would be all living in solitary or would be only supporting themselves. This is clearly not the case. As such, it can be said that the right behaviour, being moral, would therefore apply to all humans, as they live in a collective. Therefore, morals exist. Otherwise we would not live the way we do. You would not have a computer, a house, anything you did not produce yourself.

Clearly not the case, humans are social creatures which will support each other (in one way or another) and have a mind towards some kind of collective, whether it be a baby towards its parents, the parents towards their close circle, the circle towards the community and so on. This means that there is clearly a 'moral' behaviour in humans.
tejretics
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12/20/2015 5:06:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:30:39 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

It may have legal legitimacy, but what gives it *moral* legitimacy?


If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Lots of things, you rob them of property, hinder their self-interest, etc.

How is that "wrong"?


What is there to live for if there is no God?

Sex. This is the meaning of life (I'm serious, if you are curious about this I can expound upon it.)

Expand, please? The biological purpose of sex is to produce more life, so isn't that infinitely regressive/circular?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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12/20/2015 5:07:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 4:01:41 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:06:58 PM, JohnDWigingham wrote:
Where does our sense of moral come from?

Human subconscious.

Why are we obligated to trust it?


If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

You're breaking the laws of civilized society and will pay the price.

What gives "the laws of civilized society" moral legitimacy?

I also agree with your view of purpose -- "purpose" is subjective, and it's useless, regardless of God's existence, to find objective value or meaning.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Hayd
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12/20/2015 5:34:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 5:06:06 PM, tejretics wrote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

It may have legal legitimacy, but what gives it *moral* legitimacy?

The United Nations is the most authoritative source since it is the largest collection of countries, which gives it the most power.

If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Lots of things, you rob them of property, hinder their self-interest, etc.

How is that "wrong"?

Idk...helpp me

What is there to live for if there is no God?

Sex. This is the meaning of life (I'm serious, if you are curious about this I can expound upon it.)

Expand, please? The biological purpose of sex is to produce more life, so isn't that infinitely regressive/circular?

Yes, it is infinitely regressive/circular. Every single thing that makes up 'you' (cells, organs, everything) was made to that exact specification for sex. It was made to have you survive long enough until you could produce offspring, so the purpose of you living is to produce offspring (have sex). It was what you were made to do.
Midnight1131
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12/20/2015 6:51:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 5:07:41 PM, tejretics wrote:
Why are we obligated to trust it?

We're not, but it's the only thing we've got.

What gives "the laws of civilized society" moral legitimacy?

Not much, just that they've been agreed upon by the majority of people living in that society.
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Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/20/2015 7:21:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 10:40:37 AM, WAM wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:10:02 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Who says that morality exists whether there is a god or not?

I do... History kind of proofs that......

Unless religion conflicts with itself, as individuals believed in other deities at earlier times that 'strangely' provided them with the same morals as the ones that are currently worshipped. In nearly all cases.

There is nothing strange about the fact that we all share similar desires, like the desire to live, and the desire to be able to claim things as our own. Nor is there anything strange about the fact that cultures throughout history were intelligent enough to realize that the best way to ensure these desires would be fulfilled is to work together by creating a system that deters people from conflicting with these desires.

What is strange however is the belief that this development is actually an existent thing outside of our minds that can be attributed to some all powerful entity.
WAM
Posts: 139
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12/21/2015 12:29:09 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 7:21:48 PM, Double_R wrote:

There is nothing strange about the fact that we all share similar desires, like the desire to live, and the desire to be able to claim things as our own. Nor is there anything strange about the fact that cultures throughout history were intelligent enough to realize that the best way to ensure these desires would be fulfilled is to work together by creating a system that deters people from conflicting with these desires.

What is strange however is the belief that this development is actually an existent thing outside of our minds that can be attributed to some all powerful entity.

You are correct, there is nothing strange about us all sharing similar desires, nor that these 'desires' would be fulfilled more efficiently when following a 'moral codex' to speak.

Also, personally I think that the argument 'If god doesn't exist, then where do morals come from' is one of the most incredibly stupid statements one could utter...
GrittyWorm
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12/21/2015 1:42:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
There are several theories as to why Christians tend to live longer than atheists. For example, some studies propose that people who regularly go to church, pray or study the Bible are less likely to have high blood pressure that than who do not. This makes a lot of sense, because all of these activities tend to promote meditation and relaxation, and are excellent ways to relieve stress. Having enough faith to put your life into the hands of a higher power can be a freeing experience that allows you to relax and take what God gives you. At the end of the day, the less stress you experience, the less likely you are to suffer stress related physical ailments, which may in turn bring on an earlier death.
tejretics
Posts: 6,089
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12/21/2015 10:26:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 5:34:35 PM, Hayd wrote:
At 12/20/2015 5:06:06 PM, tejretics wrote:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

It may have legal legitimacy, but what gives it *moral* legitimacy?

The United Nations is the most authoritative source since it is the largest collection of countries, which gives it the most power.

That just proves legal legitimacy and legal power. What about *moral* power?


If there is no God, what's wrong with killing someone, or stealing?

Lots of things, you rob them of property, hinder their self-interest, etc.

How is that "wrong"?

Idk...helpp me

What is there to live for if there is no God?

Sex. This is the meaning of life (I'm serious, if you are curious about this I can expound upon it.)

Expand, please? The biological purpose of sex is to produce more life, so isn't that infinitely regressive/circular?

Yes, it is infinitely regressive/circular. Every single thing that makes up 'you' (cells, organs, everything) was made to that exact specification for sex. It was made to have you survive long enough until you could produce offspring, so the purpose of you living is to produce offspring (have sex). It was what you were made to do.

Yes, but that isn't the "meaning of life." Meaning, as Midnight correctly notes, is subjective. Life's "purpose" is not production of life; production of life is merely the most purposeful *action* in life.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass