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Are there any absolutes?

Maccabee
Posts: 1,332
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12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Simple question. This should get interesting.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,332
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12/16/2015 6:48:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 6:35:35 PM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
Absolutely not.
Lol. I was going someone who actually believes that they're are no absolutes to comment first.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
SarcasticMethod
Posts: 32
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12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.
Smithereens
Posts: 7,349
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12/16/2015 9:38:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

No, we don't know this. You could be lying, so it's conditionally true.
Smithereens vs Kenballer "Idealism infers Solipsism" http://www.debate.org...

"Your signature should not have the name of other players in the game, nor should it have the words VTL, Vote, or Unvote."
~Yraelz, 2017
SarcasticMethod
Posts: 32
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12/16/2015 10:34:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 9:38:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

No, we don't know this. You could be lying, so it's conditionally true.

Well, I'm talking about the absoluteness of empirical evidence, not the absoluteness of language. Whenever you perceive something, the statement that "you perceived that thing" is absolutely true.
YYW
Posts: 42,332
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12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
Trump's Criminal Campaign and Presidency:

http://www.debate.org...

Where we were, on Trump:

http://www.debate.org...

Russia: The Update

http://www.debate.org...
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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12/17/2015 12:18:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.
lol

(kidding)
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
YYW
Posts: 42,332
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12/17/2015 12:20:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.

blah blah blah

You haven't even responded to what I wrote, and now you're just going to appear and make a totally unsubstantiated, conclusory statement and what... you think I'm going to place any stock in your (dumb) opinion?

lol
Trump's Criminal Campaign and Presidency:

http://www.debate.org...

Where we were, on Trump:

http://www.debate.org...

Russia: The Update

http://www.debate.org...
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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12/17/2015 12:28:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2015 12:20:08 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.

blah blah blah

You haven't even responded to what I wrote, and now you're just going to appear and make a totally unsubstantiated, conclusory statement and what... you think I'm going to place any stock in your (dumb) opinion?

lol
You're still a disgrace to Christianity. :-)
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
YYW
Posts: 42,332
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12/17/2015 12:30:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2015 12:28:32 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:20:08 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.

blah blah blah

You haven't even responded to what I wrote, and now you're just going to appear and make a totally unsubstantiated, conclusory statement and what... you think I'm going to place any stock in your (dumb) opinion?

lol
You're still a disgrace to Christianity. :-)

This is the reason why people from the religion forum should stay there....

You make some dumb claim.... and then I make fun of the claim... and then you go make the same dumb claim again thinking that it's going to have any different result?

rofl
Trump's Criminal Campaign and Presidency:

http://www.debate.org...

Where we were, on Trump:

http://www.debate.org...

Russia: The Update

http://www.debate.org...
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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12/17/2015 9:36:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2015 12:30:10 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:28:32 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:20:08 AM, YYW wrote:
At 12/17/2015 12:17:56 AM, NewLifeChristian wrote:
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)
You're a disgrace to Christianity.

blah blah blah

You haven't even responded to what I wrote, and now you're just going to appear and make a totally unsubstantiated, conclusory statement and what... you think I'm going to place any stock in your (dumb) opinion?

lol
You're still a disgrace to Christianity. :-)

This is the reason why people from the religion forum should stay there....

You make some dumb claim.... and then I make fun of the claim... and then you go make the same dumb claim again thinking that it's going to have any different result?

rofl
Apparently someone can't take a joke.

Okay... I'll explain it to you since you don't understand. You called
me a disgrace, now I call you one. :)
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
NewLifeChristian
Posts: 1,236
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12/17/2015 9:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I shouldn't have though, I should've just turned to the other cheek. My apologies.
Pro-Life Quotes:

"I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born."
- Ronald Reagan

"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"A person is a person no matter how small."
- Dr. Seuss
ironslippers
Posts: 545
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12/18/2015 1:48:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Marvin Gaye said
Taxes, death and trouble
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,749
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12/18/2015 11:41:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

It is not simple at all.

Rational discussion presupposes absolute truths, there are logical absolutes upon which logical discourse depends. Moral discourse presupposes moral absolutes, mathematical discourse presupposes mathematical absolutes. Logical absolutes would be things like the law of identity and the law of non-contradiction. Logically, things can be absolutely true by definition, deductive reasoning is based on such absolutes, so it is absolutely true that all bachelors are not married.

Any structured system of thought presupposes absolutes, because structured systems of thought necessarily presuppose axioms upon which that structure is built, and axioms are by definition, presumed to be absolute. But the axioms are only absolute within that system of thought, and therefore not absolutely absolute. The problem being that this doesn't necessarily mean that there can't be other systems of thought that presuppose other absolutes, which would mean those presumed absolutes aren't absolute.

I'd liken the problem to the existence of infinities, there are mathematical infinities that exist, but they exist within the mathematical system of thought and there is a distinction to be made between logical infinities and actual infinities, there are logical absolutes upon which one can deny the existence of actual infinities.

We must presuppose the validity of logical absolutes in order to have a rational discussion and to deny logical absolutes is, ultimately, irrational. To say there is no absolute truth, one undermines the very foundation of that person's own argument., to say that there is no absolute truth is an absolute statement of truth, which is self-contradictory, therefore to say that there is no absolute truth cannot be a true statement. But then, to say that absolute truths exist absolutely, they would need to exist outside of the system of thought, and like the existence of actual infinities, absolute logical contradictions come into play between the possible and the actual.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,749
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12/18/2015 6:30:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

That is a single instance, not an absolute truth. There are also people who don't consider a thumb to be a finger, so the absolute truth is that you see four fingers.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
SarcasticMethod
Posts: 32
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12/18/2015 7:41:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2015 6:30:32 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

That is a single instance, not an absolute truth. There are also people who don't consider a thumb to be a finger, so the absolute truth is that you see four fingers.

well then, we need to refine the language to find absolute truth. "Based on my definition of these words, I see five fingers on my hand."
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,649
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12/19/2015 3:10:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2015 6:30:32 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

That is a single instance, not an absolute truth. There are also people who don't consider a thumb to be a finger, so the absolute truth is that you see four fingers.

I believe his point was that it is an absolute truth to state that we perceive things in a certain manner. That was a specific example of perception. Regardless of whether or not we are all an illusion or his hand doesn't actually exist and he is a madman, it is an absolute truth that we perceive things to exist in a certain way.

Not that this truth tells us anything of significant importance.

What about the absolute truth that I exist? Can this be disproven? Even if you argue that I am an illusion or a figment of your imagination, that merely means I exist in a different form. An illusion or figment of the imagination still exists, but not as you thought it would.

Perhaps I could refine the truth to state: I exist in a manner that is possible to be perceived. What about that? I don't think this can be refuted.
missmedic
Posts: 459
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12/20/2015 4:12:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

To claim that there are no absolutes, is a claim of absolute.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,332
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12/20/2015 8:09:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2015 4:12:28 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

To claim that there are no absolutes, is a claim of absolute.

My point exactly. "There are no absolutes". Are you absolutely sure?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
sadolite
Posts: 9,345
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12/20/2015 9:16:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Are there any absolutes?" There are so many one can not even begin to count them. They range from the most rudimentary to the most complex.
sadolite
Posts: 9,345
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12/20/2015 9:19:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2015 9:16:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
"Are there any absolutes?" There are so many one can not even begin to count them. They range from the most rudimentary to the most complex.

For example: If I sneak up on you and bash you in the teeth with a baseball bat, the teeth that get hit will absolutely be severely damaged.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,919
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12/22/2015 7:22:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 11:53:34 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yo mama is an absolute ho!

lol

(kidding)

Of course there are... science tells us so. There are also absolute moral rules (e.g. murder is wrong.)

Actually it's thou shalt not kill, which applies to all living entities, whilst murder only applies to man. But hey, what ever the church imposes is gotta be correct, Right?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,742
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12/22/2015 7:31:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

You have perceived* this sentence.

^ This is an absolute truth because it is specifically addressing only those who perceive it. Essentially, it's tautological.

*I can't say "read", because it is possible that someone heard it with a text-to-voice device.
Wylted
Posts: 23,992
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12/22/2015 8:02:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2015 9:38:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 12/16/2015 9:34:39 PM, SarcasticMethod wrote:
At 12/16/2015 5:55:04 PM, Maccabee wrote:
Simple question. This should get interesting.

Yes. Looking at my hand, I see five fingers. I say, "I see five fingers on my hand.". This is absolutely true.

No, we don't know this. You could be lying, so it's conditionally true.

Why would he lie about that?
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Wylted
Posts: 23,992
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12/22/2015 8:05:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2015 9:19:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 12/20/2015 9:16:01 PM, sadolite wrote:
"Are there any absolutes?" There are so many one can not even begin to count them. They range from the most rudimentary to the most complex.

For example: If I sneak up on you and bash you in the teeth with a baseball bat, the teeth that get hit will absolutely be severely damaged.

No they won't. Bring it fool!!
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SNP1
Posts: 2,446
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12/22/2015 8:42:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Absolutes must logically exist in some form as the non-existence of absolutes must be absolutely true to be coherent, which is paradoxical.

Now, what is and is not absolute is what can be debated. I take the stance that while absolutes must exist that we probably do not have access to them and can only attempt to infer them. What this leads to is that we might know some absolutes, but we do not know that.
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