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Preface: Free Will In Islamic Theology

Yassine
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12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
- I intend to do write a somewhat detailed description of the concept of Free Will in Islamic Theology. It is, of course, distinct from its counterpart in other traditions, particularly Christian Theology. Islam is known for having a sort of deterministic fatalistic worldview on things, which I'll discuss later, yet it does have a defined concept of Free Will.

=> Now, before I get down to writing what I intend to write, due to the wide range of the topic, I would first like you to share with me your own understanding of Free Will, if you happen to believe in such a concept, or your best arguments against it, if you happen to disagree with the concept.

I await your responses.
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Yassine
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12/19/2015 5:09:27 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 2:44:04 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Free will means that you could've done otherwise than what you did.

- In what sense exactly? I could've not replied to you, but now I am replying to you. So, what link do these two acts have between them?
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DPMartin
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12/19/2015 3:17:02 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I intend to do write a somewhat detailed description of the concept of Free Will in Islamic Theology. It is, of course, distinct from its counterpart in other traditions, particularly Christian Theology. Islam is known for having a sort of deterministic fatalistic worldview on things, which I'll discuss later, yet it does have a defined concept of Free Will.

=> Now, before I get down to writing what I intend to write, due to the wide range of the topic, I would first like you to share with me your own understanding of Free Will, if you happen to believe in such a concept, or your best arguments against it, if you happen to disagree with the concept.

I await your responses.

How about you go first, the subject is Islamic theology, right?

It"s no secret that Islam ideology is the enemy of free men. Present day Muslim nations prove it. Nations governed by free men, have no problem with Muslims in their territory, when the free men have more power then the Muslims. Nations governed by Muslims kill torture oppress free men in their territories, unless they perceive that the free men have more power then the Muslim nation do.
Yassine
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12/19/2015 3:59:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 3:17:02 PM, DPMartin wrote:

How about you go first, the subject is Islamic theology, right?

It"s no secret that Islam ideology is the enemy of free men. Present day Muslim nations prove it. Nations governed by free men, have no problem with Muslims in their territory, when the free men have more power then the Muslims. Nations governed by Muslims kill torture oppress free men in their territories, unless they perceive that the free men have more power then the Muslim nation do.

- Blahblahblah... Off topic.
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DPMartin
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12/19/2015 11:54:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 3:59:08 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/19/2015 3:17:02 PM, DPMartin wrote:

How about you go first, the subject is Islamic theology, right?

It"s no secret that Islam ideology is the enemy of free men. Present day Muslim nations prove it. Nations governed by free men, have no problem with Muslims in their territory, when the free men have more power then the Muslims. Nations governed by Muslims kill torture oppress free men in their territories, unless they perceive that the free men have more power then the Muslim nation do.

- Blahblahblah... Off topic.

Call it what you want. You asked, that"s to bad if it isn"t what you want. Islam theology on free will is, Islam is the enemy of free men, and free men exercise free will or they are not free men.
Sidewalker
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12/20/2015 2:15:32 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I intend to do write a somewhat detailed description of the concept of Free Will in Islamic Theology. It is, of course, distinct from its counterpart in other traditions, particularly Christian Theology. Islam is known for having a sort of deterministic fatalistic worldview on things, which I'll discuss later, yet it does have a defined concept of Free Will.

=> Now, before I get down to writing what I intend to write, due to the wide range of the topic, I would first like you to share with me your own understanding of Free Will, if you happen to believe in such a concept, or your best arguments against it, if you happen to disagree with the concept.

I await your responses.

I don"t think my understanding of free will is all that different from the Islamic understanding of free will, but I suppose you will tell me about that.

I believe in the self-evident experiential reality that we are conscious beings that have reasons and motivations behind the choices we are free to make. We have the ability to foresee the consequences of our decisions and act upon them, and consequently we are morally responsible causal agents.

My belief in free will is based upon the fact that consciousness has causal influence due to its content, which can include a desire or intention, it typically includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state that includes values, purposes, and intent, with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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12/20/2015 2:50:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 2:15:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I intend to do write a somewhat detailed description of the concept of Free Will in Islamic Theology. It is, of course, distinct from its counterpart in other traditions, particularly Christian Theology. Islam is known for having a sort of deterministic fatalistic worldview on things, which I'll discuss later, yet it does have a defined concept of Free Will.

=> Now, before I get down to writing what I intend to write, due to the wide range of the topic, I would first like you to share with me your own understanding of Free Will, if you happen to believe in such a concept, or your best arguments against it, if you happen to disagree with the concept.

I await your responses.

I don"t think my understanding of free will is all that different from the Islamic understanding of free will, but I suppose you will tell me about that.

I believe in the self-evident experiential reality that we are conscious beings that have reasons and motivations behind the choices we are free to make. We have the ability to foresee the consequences of our decisions and act upon them, and consequently we are morally responsible causal agents.

My belief in free will is based upon the fact that consciousness has causal influence due to its content, which can include a desire or intention, it typically includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state that includes values, purposes, and intent, with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.

I guess what I'd like you to explain is how you reconcile the belief that we have Free Will with the idea that everything that occurs is God's will and has already been recorded in the Book of Decrees.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Yassine
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12/20/2015 5:30:38 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 11:54:34 PM, DPMartin wrote:

Call it what you want. You asked, that"s to bad if it isn"t what you want. Islam theology on free will is, Islam is the enemy of free men, and free men exercise free will or they are not free men.

- You're entitled to be delusional.
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ironslippers
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12/23/2015 8:29:53 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Free will = Accountability
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Yassine
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12/23/2015 1:50:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 8:29:53 AM, ironslippers wrote:
Free will = Accountability

- These two concepts are indeed related, but how do you equate them? Elaborate.
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Yassine
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12/23/2015 1:56:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 2:15:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:

I don"t think my understanding of free will is all that different from the Islamic understanding of free will, but I suppose you will tell me about that.

- I sure will.

I believe in the self-evident experiential reality that we are conscious beings that have reasons and motivations behind the choices we are free to make. We have the ability to foresee the consequences of our decisions and act upon them, and consequently we are morally responsible causal agents.

- This probably has some relation to the Islamic view of things.

My belief in free will is based upon the fact that consciousness has causal influence due to its content, which can include a desire or intention, it typically includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state that includes values, purposes, and intent, with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.

- When I elaborate more on the Islamic concept, you'd see if what you perceive to be Free Will is conform to Islamic understanding ot not.
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ssadi
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12/23/2015 3:07:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Partial Free Will...!
http://www.questionsonislam.com...
Or were they created without anything being before them (or out of something different than the basic material of all creation, so that they know things others do not), or are they the creators (of themselves, so that they can maintain themselves and are free in their acts)? Or did they create the heavens and the earth (so that their sovereignty belongs to them)? No indeed. Rather, they have no certain knowledge (about creation, humankind, and the basic facts concerning them).

Quran, 52:35-36
n7
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12/23/2015 6:50:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 5:09:27 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/19/2015 2:44:04 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Free will means that you could've done otherwise than what you did.

- In what sense exactly? I could've not replied to you, but now I am replying to you. So, what link do these two acts have between them?

Perhaps they're related in the sense that in one possible world you are doing x and you have made it true in the actual world that you are doing x. If you have two options, you may have a choice of making which one actual.

I think any incompatibilist definition of free will is flawed anyway. My favorite definition is probably "Acting according to your second order desires."
http://www.uark.edu...
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Yassine
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12/23/2015 6:54:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 6:50:39 PM, n7 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 5:09:27 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/19/2015 2:44:04 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Free will means that you could've done otherwise than what you did.

- In what sense exactly? I could've not replied to you, but now I am replying to you. So, what link do these two acts have between them?

Perhaps they're related in the sense that in one possible world you are doing x and you have made it true in the actual world that you are doing x. If you have two options, you may have a choice of making which one actual.

I think any incompatibilist definition of free will is flawed anyway. My favorite definition is probably "Acting according to your second order desires."
http://www.uark.edu...

- This hints at an idea relating to Free Will in Islam as well. Interesting!
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Midnight1131
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12/23/2015 7:55:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
Free will is subjective. You can delude yourself into thinking that you have free will, but this is only in relatively small matters. In the bigger picture, you're confined to a set of outcomes that can't be changed.
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Sidewalker
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12/23/2015 8:48:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 1:56:38 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/20/2015 2:15:32 AM, Sidewalker wrote:

I don"t think my understanding of free will is all that different from the Islamic understanding of free will, but I suppose you will tell me about that.

- I sure will.

I believe in the self-evident experiential reality that we are conscious beings that have reasons and motivations behind the choices we are free to make. We have the ability to foresee the consequences of our decisions and act upon them, and consequently we are morally responsible causal agents.

- This probably has some relation to the Islamic view of things.

My belief in free will is based upon the fact that consciousness has causal influence due to its content, which can include a desire or intention, it typically includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state, it is a conscious state that includes values, purposes, and intent, with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state.

- When I elaborate more on the Islamic concept, you'd see if what you perceive to be Free Will is conform to Islamic understanding ot not.

What about reconciling Free Will with everything being God's Will and already recorded in the Book of Decrees?

When I choose, was it my will or God's will that chose, and if my decision is already written in the Book of Decrees, then how is it my will is free?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Geogeer
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12/23/2015 9:04:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I intend to do write a somewhat detailed description of the concept of Free Will in Islamic Theology. It is, of course, distinct from its counterpart in other traditions, particularly Christian Theology. Islam is known for having a sort of deterministic fatalistic worldview on things, which I'll discuss later, yet it does have a defined concept of Free Will.

=> Now, before I get down to writing what I intend to write, due to the wide range of the topic, I would first like you to share with me your own understanding of Free Will, if you happen to believe in such a concept, or your best arguments against it, if you happen to disagree with the concept.

I await your responses.

And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

God has created man in his image. That means we have reason and the freedom to use it rightly or wrongly. As God is love, it requires us to have complete freedom so that we may completely love God as he loves us. That is why we have dominion over creation - we have true freedom of will.
Yassine
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12/24/2015 12:03:06 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 7:55:07 PM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 12/19/2015 12:42:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
Free will is subjective. You can delude yourself into thinking that you have free will, but this is only in relatively small matters. In the bigger picture, you're confined to a set of outcomes that can't be changed.

- So, you don't think such a concept is real. Ok, do you have any arguments against it then?
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 12:07:36 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 8:48:57 PM, Sidewalker wrote:

What about reconciling Free Will with everything being God's Will and already recorded in the Book of Decrees?

- Free Will, in Islam, has to do with volition, not actual actions.

When I choose, was it my will or God's will that chose, and if my decision is already written in the Book of Decrees, then how is it my will is free?

- You chose to act a certain way, but you don't chose your volition to act in that way. I'm eventually gonna talk about all this in more details. Now, I just wanna get the feel of how different people understand free will, & what issues they have with it.
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 12:13:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/23/2015 9:04:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:

And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

God has created man in his image. That means we have reason and the freedom to use it rightly or wrongly.

- How is being created in God's image implies having freedom of choice?

As God is love, it requires us to have complete freedom so that we may completely love God as he loves us.

- Not necessarily. Angels, I assume according to you, also love God but have no free will. No?

That is why we have dominion over creation - we have true freedom of will.

- The way I understand the verse is that "dominion over creation" is ordained by the leave of God, where is the freedom of will here?

- Also, what is it that you refer to as "freedom of will"? How exactly do you understand "freedom of will"?
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Midnight1131
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12/24/2015 12:42:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 12:03:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- So, you don't think such a concept is real. Ok, do you have any arguments against it then?

Against free will? No, what I mean to say was that free will is real. But in the bigger picture it doesn't matter much.
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 12:43:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 12:42:07 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 12/24/2015 12:03:06 AM, Yassine wrote:
- So, you don't think such a concept is real. Ok, do you have any arguments against it then?

Against free will? No, what I mean to say was that free will is real. But in the bigger picture it doesn't matter much.

- Is what sense is it real? & why doesn't it matter?
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Midnight1131
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12/24/2015 1:37:38 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 12:43:23 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Is what sense is it real? & why doesn't it matter?

It's real in the sense that you can actually make decisions. It doesn't matter because in the end you'll be dead, the earth will continue to circle the sun until the sun dies, and nothing will change that [not yet anyways].
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 1:39:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 1:37:38 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 12/24/2015 12:43:23 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Is what sense is it real? & why doesn't it matter?

It's real in the sense that you can actually make decisions.

- Physiologically speaking?

It doesn't matter because in the end you'll be dead, the earth will continue to circle the sun until the sun dies, and nothing will change that [not yet anyways].

- OK.
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Midnight1131
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12/24/2015 1:41:18 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 1:39:33 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 12/24/2015 1:37:38 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 12/24/2015 12:43:23 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Is what sense is it real? & why doesn't it matter?

It's real in the sense that you can actually make decisions.

- Physiologically speaking?

No, but in your mind you can still make decisions and think things out for yourself. In that basic sense you'll always have free will.
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Yassine
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12/24/2015 1:42:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 1:41:18 AM, Midnight1131 wrote:

No, but in your mind you can still make decisions and think things out for yourself. In that basic sense you'll always have free will.

- So, you talking about a soul & brain?
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Midnight1131
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12/24/2015 1:49:21 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/24/2015 1:42:41 AM, Yassine wrote:
- So, you talking about a soul & brain?

Your brain and conscience, yes.
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