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The (im)morality of incest

1harderthanyouthink
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12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations.
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Smithereens
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12/20/2015 11:24:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
You don't need to fear backlash from the philosophy forum. That never happens so far as I've seen.

In relation to your point, we could go down several avenues of PoV to consider it. Purely philosophical views would weigh your point in relation to moral absolutes vs subjective/nihilistic morality systems.

you're probably looking for a more cultured and less mathematical PoV. In which case, yes, incest is considered morally wrong due to high potential for harm inherent for other individuals who have no power over your decision.
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1harderthanyouthink
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12/20/2015 11:26:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:24:06 PM, Smithereens wrote:
You don't need to fear backlash from the philosophy forum. That never happens so far as I've seen.

In relation to your point, we could go down several avenues of PoV to consider it. Purely philosophical views would weigh your point in relation to moral absolutes vs subjective/nihilistic morality systems.

you're probably looking for a more cultured and less mathematical PoV. In which case, yes, incest is considered morally wrong due to high potential for harm inherent for other individuals who have no power over your decision.

I don't care about the view. I care about hearing why.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
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Smithereens
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12/20/2015 11:27:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:26:30 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/20/2015 11:24:06 PM, Smithereens wrote:
You don't need to fear backlash from the philosophy forum. That never happens so far as I've seen.

In relation to your point, we could go down several avenues of PoV to consider it. Purely philosophical views would weigh your point in relation to moral absolutes vs subjective/nihilistic morality systems.

you're probably looking for a more cultured and less mathematical PoV. In which case, yes, incest is considered morally wrong due to high potential for harm inherent for other individuals who have no power over your decision.

I don't care about the view. I care about hearing why.

refer to bolded
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1harderthanyouthink
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12/20/2015 11:29:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:27:14 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 12/20/2015 11:26:30 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/20/2015 11:24:06 PM, Smithereens wrote:
You don't need to fear backlash from the philosophy forum. That never happens so far as I've seen.

In relation to your point, we could go down several avenues of PoV to consider it. Purely philosophical views would weigh your point in relation to moral absolutes vs subjective/nihilistic morality systems.

you're probably looking for a more cultured and less mathematical PoV. In which case, yes, incest is considered morally wrong due to high potential for harm inherent for other individuals who have no power over your decision.

I don't care about the view. I care about hearing why.

refer to bolded

I saw. But I just wanted to note that.

Also, I would appreciate both society-based arguments and purely philosophical ones.
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Smithereens
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12/20/2015 11:36:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Imo:
"Do you think incest is immoral?"
By what standard are you measuring moral worth? You can't make a categorical claim on the moral nature of something without first demonstrating an objective standard. It's as nonsensical as asking how long it takes to travel a mile. There are different systems and different answers from each.

"Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?"
It makes sense in a society that if something is judged to be morally bankrupt, it is consistently banned for all individuals in that society. Harming other people is illegal, and society tends to judge incest as harm to other individuals, therefore incest should logically be illegal.

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?
You'll have to clarify what you mean by 'moral standing.' There are quite a few ways to interpret that.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/20/2015 11:45:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Okay, discarding religious arguments and an appeal to the "deformed offspring" argument (both of which are valid), legalized incest would foster a culture where you can't trust your own siblings, cousins, or parents to not be constantly thinking about f***ing you. You don't know if they're trying to see you naked or what. A lot of people would become extremely paranoid about this, especially whenever they discover that their sibling/cousin/parent does harbor such feelings. This would get really unpleasant really quick.
I mean, let's say 15 year old Sarah finds out that her 16 year old brother Jack has feelings for her. She'd have to more or less spend every moment for the next couple years living in the same house as him and having to keep an eye out for him.
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Vox_Veritas
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12/20/2015 11:49:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I mean, if I found out that one of my cousins had a crush on me I'd spend every thanksgiving barricaded in my room...
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aquilla
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12/20/2015 11:57:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations. : :

The first people in God's simulation didn't understand what incest meant.
Vox_Veritas
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12/21/2015 12:04:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:57:54 PM, aquilla wrote:
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations. : :

The first people in God's simulation didn't understand what incest meant.

Indeed. These first people were also born of God though.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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1harderthanyouthink
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12/21/2015 12:06:46 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:45:51 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Okay, discarding religious arguments and an appeal to the "deformed offspring" argument (both of which are valid), legalized incest would foster a culture where you can't trust your own siblings, cousins, or parents to not be constantly thinking about f***ing you. You don't know if they're trying to see you naked or what. A lot of people would become extremely paranoid about this, especially whenever they discover that their sibling/cousin/parent does harbor such feelings. This would get really unpleasant really quick.
I mean, let's say 15 year old Sarah finds out that her 16 year old brother Jack has feelings for her. She'd have to more or less spend every moment for the next couple years living in the same house as him and having to keep an eye out for him.
That is...a really bad argument. I'm not asking if you'd be uncomfortable with family having feelings for you.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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aquilla
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12/21/2015 12:08:52 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 12:04:07 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 12/20/2015 11:57:54 PM, aquilla wrote:
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations. : :

The first people in God's simulation didn't understand what incest meant.

Indeed. These first people were also born of God though. : :

Everything we experience started out as our Creator's thoughts before He spoke them into technology that we can't see or comprehend. Although, the Beast that God used to teach His people how to build things to eventually get them to build the computer technology we have today gives us a good idea of how our Creator did it. Now He has some of His characters ( computer programmers ) taking their thoughts and speaking them into voice recognition programs to build computer simulation programs. This should give you a clue to how our Creator created us and everything else.

Psalm 33
8: Let all the earth fear the LORD, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9: For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood forth.
Vox_Veritas
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12/21/2015 12:10:46 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 12:06:46 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 12/20/2015 11:45:51 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Okay, discarding religious arguments and an appeal to the "deformed offspring" argument (both of which are valid), legalized incest would foster a culture where you can't trust your own siblings, cousins, or parents to not be constantly thinking about f***ing you. You don't know if they're trying to see you naked or what. A lot of people would become extremely paranoid about this, especially whenever they discover that their sibling/cousin/parent does harbor such feelings. This would get really unpleasant really quick.
I mean, let's say 15 year old Sarah finds out that her 16 year old brother Jack has feelings for her. She'd have to more or less spend every moment for the next couple years living in the same house as him and having to keep an eye out for him.
That is...a really bad argument. I'm not asking if you'd be uncomfortable with family having feelings for you.

It's an argument against incest. A culture which tolerates incest will be a culture where incest is eventually commonplace. When this happens kids and teens will always be having to watch their backs, and this will carry over to when they're adults. Wouldn't it be better if you could just assume that none of your family members have a crush on you by virtue of their relation to you?
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1harderthanyouthink
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12/21/2015 12:23:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
I would welcome actual answers to the questions.
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aquilla
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12/21/2015 1:30:23 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 12:23:41 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I would welcome actual answers to the questions. : :

What is an actual answer? Isn't it better to get a TRUTH-FILLED answer?
bballcrook21
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12/21/2015 1:45:05 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It's evidently dependent on your own moral values. Modern society has grown to accept that acts of incest are immoral and most are repulsed by it. However, there are still quite a lot of people who commit acts of incest.

In the end, I do find it to be immoral, but that may not be shared among others.
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bballcrook21
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12/21/2015 1:50:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
There's actually been a lot of studies that show that children born from incest are more likely to inherit mental disorders or physical disorders, as both dominant alleles are present from each individual. This may be different if it is not the immediate family though.

Children that are born out of incest are most likely not going to have the best childhood or relationships with other individuals in society, especially if it is a more developed region.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
ShabShoral
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12/21/2015 2:49:49 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?
No.
Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?
No.
Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?
No.
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Death23
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12/21/2015 3:03:08 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
It's damn disgusting, but I wouldn't say that it's immoral. Every time I take a dump it's gross but that doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
ShabShoral
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12/21/2015 3:17:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Oh, you wanted actual answers. Sorry.

At 12/21/2015 2:49:49 AM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?
To quote the Great Kanye West:

"We formed a new religion
No sins as long as there's permission
And deception is the only felony"

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?
See above.
Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?
No, because I don't see why it would be harmful in the first place.
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spacetime
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12/21/2015 3:20:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:45:51 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Okay, discarding religious arguments and an appeal to the "deformed offspring" argument (both of which are valid),

They aren't. Religious arguments in general are pretty dumb, and incestuous marriages don't inherently lead to incestuous reproduction. The state can make education on the genetics of incest a prerequisite to having an incestuous marriage legally recognized, and like it or not, abortion and contraceptive options are always going to be around.

legalized incest would foster a culture where you can't trust your own siblings, cousins, or parents to not be constantly thinking about f***ing you. You don't know if they're trying to see you naked or what. A lot of people would become extremely paranoid about this, especially whenever they discover that their sibling/cousin/parent does harbor such feelings. This would get really unpleasant really quick.
I mean, let's say 15 year old Sarah finds out that her 16 year old brother Jack has feelings for her. She'd have to more or less spend every moment for the next couple years living in the same house as him and having to keep an eye out for him.

Lol, you think that people tend to avoid that stuff just because its illegal? Frankly, I don't think most people are even aware that there are laws against it. They avoid it because they have an innate repulsion to it. Unlike with gay marriage, there is not a substantial population of "closet incestuals", so there won't be enough of a desensitization effect for the social stigma surrounding incest to go away.
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skipsaweirdo
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12/21/2015 4:44:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations.
Incest is merely a matter of information more than anything else. For instance, a scientific fact is that every person with blue eyes all share the same ancestor estimated to have existed somewhere between 6000 and 10000 years ago. If you thinks that's not so weird, its a fact that every person of European descent shares the same ancestor from about 1000 years ago. And to be really picky about what you mean by incest, scientists have tracked every homosapaien to the same woman that existed 100 thousand or so years ago. They call her mitochondrial Eve. Technically we are all committing incest. But, if you merely narrow down the meaning to "known" lineage than incest does become quite troubling because of cultural views. This is of course based solely on individual information again because it is possible that a half brother and half sister are currently married and having children but are completely unaware of the relation and may never become aware unless something medically happens to both and DNA is looked at etc.....
There are people in the United States that still consider relationships between second cousins as acceptable.
Emilrose
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12/21/2015 11:08:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Actually, I have known real life cases of incest and I can say that above all, it is something that extends further than the morality/immorality aspects.

Essentially you cannot stop people engaging in incestuous relationships but you can indeed present valid reasons on as to why it shouldn't be widely accepted. For me, this would primarily revolve around the 'physical' elements surrounding it and what it actually means when say, a child(dren) is created as a result of incest~generally, they are often born mentally and physically defected and this inevitably stays with them. Family members who engage in incest don't *always* give birth to children, but more often than not, they do~~and that's why it's an issue.

The main example that I know (this was a family that lived in one of the towns I have lived in), is that of a father who had sexual relations with his daughter, she got pregnant, and thus gave birth to a mentally retarded son~~who also happened to be unusually tall. Anyway, this entire family has stayed firmly in the 'past' and to say they are basic would be an understatement. Moreover, they are all physically unattractive just completely stupid. This is additionally attributed to enviornment though (one reason why the father felt compelled to have sex with his daugher, probably.) They were extremely rural types.

So, this why I personally think incest is overall a 'bad' thing, and something that I associate with regression rather than progression. It's additionally not something that was totally unheard as regards to Jews, because some were unwilling to have 'relations' with 'outside' people, a lot of intermarriage between cousins, etc. took place. In fact, my grandmother had a breast cancer (caused by BRCA1/2 gene mutations) that was largely attributed to inbreeding and mixing of the same blood between Eastern European Jews. Nevertheless, she survived after having both breasts removed~~however, this risk with Ashkenazi Jewish women is still quite high, and around 10% have been diagnosed with it in the U.S. It's just one of a few diseases that (some) Jews still continue to experience, as a result of historical incest.
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dylancatlow
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12/21/2015 7:00:33 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 11:45:51 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Okay, discarding religious arguments and an appeal to the "deformed offspring" argument (both of which are valid), legalized incest would foster a culture where you can't trust your own siblings, cousins, or parents to not be constantly thinking about f***ing you. You don't know if they're trying to see you naked or what. A lot of people would become extremely paranoid about this, especially whenever they discover that their sibling/cousin/parent does harbor such feelings. This would get really unpleasant really quick.
I mean, let's say 15 year old Sarah finds out that her 16 year old brother Jack has feelings for her. She'd have to more or less spend every moment for the next couple years living in the same house as him and having to keep an eye out for him.

Just because one is legally permitted to do something doesn't mean that one will want to do it. Even if incest was legally obligated, I doubt that many people would be open to it.
kp98
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12/21/2015 9:57:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Incest is objectively bad, but it is not entirely clear if the reason most people find it immoral (or distasteful/disgusting) is learned or innate. My guess would be it is largely innate, because it incest so taboo that I don't think parents tell their kids not to be sexually intested in their siblings - I've never been a parent so I'm guessing on that one!

Obviously, even if 'incest disgust' is hard-wired into most people, there will be occasional individuals who are wired-up wrongly, (or where their sexual urges are stronger than their disgust) but I don't think that alters the issue to any great extent. I think we are hard-wired to avoid incest. Objectively, we our brain are configured with a link between 'incest' and our 'disgust centre' (the opposite side to our 'pleasure centre) and the activation of that link is what we preceive as the immorality of incest.
Blade-of-Truth
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12/22/2015 8:54:50 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

Yes. As a utilitarian, I strive to achieve that which is good for the majority. I see a harm with incest in that the act results in a genetically inferior specimen. If the majority started practicing incest, our gene pool would weaken. Whereas now, with diversification between genetic partners, we see some fine results. This is a watered-down version of my full reasoning for why it's immoral, just fyi, but get's the point across.

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Yes. I could actually run the Harm principle here - showing how the act results in the harm of the offspring against their will or consent, and thus should be illegal.

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

I don't get the question. Does incest do more harm socially than it does to a person's moral standing? I don't think the two are even comparable, thus leading me to view this as a flawed question. If anything, I think it harms both. However, a "person's" moral standing is entirely subjective both in my view of them and in their own view of their actions - so I can't objectively make that call.
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Envisage
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12/22/2015 9:07:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

---

Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

No. Even assuming normative ethics, no.
This debate outlines my general stance on incest:
http://www.debate.org...

I did another debate on the other side which outlines my general concerns:

http://www.debate.org...

Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

Only if the evidence favours such. I.e. Significant harm results from not banning it, or banning it would result in a large negative impact on those who want to establish an incestous relationship.

Simply put, I don't see the evidence is significantly against incestuous marriage etc., and in countries which do not have legislation against it, there are not demonstrable harms. (See debate vs Yassine).

Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

Wtf does that mean?

---

Disclaimer: Due to the possibility of a backlash on the topic - of which I am well aware of peoples' majority viewpoint, I thought it would be prudent to note that I do not promote people engaging in incestual relationships that may result in a child's birth or any relationship that can be considered an abuse of prior relations.
tejretics
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12/22/2015 10:38:33 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/20/2015 10:53:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
So it seems to be a majorly unchallenged position that incest is wrong.

But is incest wrong, or is it just bad? Who are we to tell people that they cannot fvck certain people because it's their cousin?

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Questions:

Do you think incest is immoral?

No, as long as it's between consensual adults, and does not result in childbirth (some studies report that children born of incest are often disabled, physically or mentally -- I have to research that a bit).


Do you think that incest should have legislation regarding its banning?

No. The government must legislate based on the harm principle, else there's no reason for people to accept its legitimacy; the fundamental purpose of government is to prevent harm. Consensual incest


Do you agree with this statement: "incest does more to harm society than it does to a person's moral standing."?

I don't see the harm incest between consensual adults does to society.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
Posts: 6,083
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12/22/2015 10:40:10 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
*shouldn't be legislated upon unless it poses significant harm
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Beginner
Posts: 4,292
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12/22/2015 11:27:58 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
If the entirety of the anti-incest case is based almost exclusively on the production of offspring, doesn't that mean there really isn't a strong moral case against homosexual incest? :D
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