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Can Suicide be Justified?

n7
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1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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1/3/2016 4:55:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In response to the first question, the one in the title (can suicide be justified), I think it depends. In really extenuating circumstances, if you have parental consent, I guess so.

But in response to what you've written in your OP, no. What you should do is work on those factors you mentioned and try to fit in society as best you can... suicide is immoral and by no means justified in this situation.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Illegalcombatant
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1/3/2016 4:56:16 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

You just did.............
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
n7
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1/3/2016 7:31:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:56:16 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

You just did.............

We're dismissing those cases, because they deal with something which saves lives. The suicides were based on a different principle.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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1/3/2016 7:35:14 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 4:55:00 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In response to the first question, the one in the title (can suicide be justified), I think it depends. In really extenuating circumstances, if you have parental consent, I guess so.

Something like terminal illness?
But in response to what you've written in your OP, no. What you should do is work on those factors you mentioned and try to fit in society as best you can... suicide is immoral and by no means justified in this situation.

The example ruled out treatment. The best they can do might not be enough.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Envisage
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1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

I'll commit suicide because... I want to?

Isn't that justification enough? What do you mean or need in order to satisfy the condition of 'justified'? My non-cognitivism senses are tingling....
1harderthanyouthink
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1/3/2016 12:18:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Suicide when controlling for certain specific factors is amoral. There is no judgement to be made other than the person's choice on whether to live or die.
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Rosalie
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1/3/2016 5:37:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Posting here now, so I will remember to respond to this when I get home.
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Rosalie
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1/3/2016 11:10:00 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Suicide is a topic I care about, allot. So many people struggle from depression, to the point where it drives them to kill themselves. I personally believe that suicide is never justified, unless the person is terminally ill. Now, I'm not saying that if someone is terminally ill, they should go commit suicide, but I could defineatly see why they would they would do it. They may feel like a burdon to some, and that's their reasoning to put an end to their life.

As for suicide linked to depression, I believe it's unjustified. There is *always* something you can do to better your situation. But some may feel as if their trials will never end, which I understand. I've known 2 people that have committed suicide.

1. Was a ex boyfriend in middle school. He ended his life at the age of 18. Right before he killed himself, he wrote a post saying "sometimes I have to do what's beat from me, I hope you will all understand". Nobody knew that he was suffering from depression. I mean, he had all he wanted in life, and succeeded in everything he did. We are blind when it comes to depression. Its hard to know how people feel, and what they're thinking. So its sometimes hard to say if their action was justified or not. Maybe they don't want help, maybe they feel as if their problems will never end, or they just don't want to live life anymore...and they don't want to put up with it..

Today in church, our pastor talked about a statistic on what month and day people tend to die more on. January first was the day most people die. How? Suicide. They don't want to go another 12 months...its very sad..

It's hard to say if its justified or not..but I tend to think that you can always better your situation, unless you're terminally I'll.
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

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n7
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1/3/2016 11:11:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

I'll commit suicide because... I want to?

Isn't that justification enough? What do you mean or need in order to satisfy the condition of 'justified'? My non-cognitivism senses are tingling....

I am thinking of justification in the sense that there is considerable suffering which will not subside, to the point where death is preferable. I wouldn't consider something like losing an iphone to be a good reason for suicide, but would consider having a terminal illness to be a good reason. One is impulsive, the other is because there exists considerable suffering. I am asking if that can be transferred into someone with the pain of their inability to fulfill societal factors.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Rosalie
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1/3/2016 11:15:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I will be 100% honest on this, because I may be able to help other. At the age of 11, I did attempt a suicide. This was before I was adopted by my family I'm with now. I was a very depressed individual. I hated my life, and myself to the point where I wanted my life to end. So I began harming myself, trying to bleed out. I remember being so scared, because I loved so many people...and I know I'd kill them inside if I killed myself...I just remember stopping in the action and bursting into tears, I stopped.

I *did* better myself. Though what I had to do in order to better myself was extremely hard and difficult, I did what I had to do to have a happy life, and I did. I'm happier than I ever have been, those actions are what has made me a strong independent women todaym . killing myself would have been unjustified..because I had the option to fix my life.
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

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Midnight1131
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1/3/2016 11:17:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

Yes, suicide is a easily justifiable act when looking at it from a third party perspective. Their life, their choice.
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Rosalie
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1/3/2016 11:20:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 11:17:15 PM, Midnight1131 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

Yes, suicide is a easily justifiable act when looking at it from a third party perspective. Their life, their choice.

I guess that's true. But they always have an option to get help, and better their lives.
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
Midnight1131
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1/3/2016 11:21:44 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 11:20:20 PM, Rosalie wrote:
I guess that's true. But they always have an option to get help, and better their lives.

Yeah, it's a lot more complicated for them. But other people should never be able to dictate the decision for them.
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n7
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1/3/2016 11:28:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 11:10:00 PM, Rosalie wrote:
Suicide is a topic I care about, allot. So many people struggle from depression, to the point where it drives them to kill themselves. I personally believe that suicide is never justified, unless the person is terminally ill. Now, I'm not saying that if someone is terminally ill, they should go commit suicide, but I could defineatly see why they would they would do it. They may feel like a burdon to some, and that's their reasoning to put an end to their life.

As for suicide linked to depression, I believe it's unjustified. There is *always* something you can do to better your situation. But some may feel as if their trials will never end, which I understand. I've known 2 people that have committed suicide.

I agree that suicide because of depression is unjustified. But, in the case above, depression may just be a symptom of some hierarchical problem. In which case, depression is only part of the reason for want of death.
1. Was a ex boyfriend in middle school. He ended his life at the age of 18. Right before he killed himself, he wrote a post saying "sometimes I have to do what's beat from me, I hope you will all understand". Nobody knew that he was suffering from depression. I mean, he had all he wanted in life, and succeeded in everything he did. We are blind when it comes to depression. Its hard to know how people feel, and what they're thinking. So its sometimes hard to say if their action was justified or not. Maybe they don't want help, maybe they feel as if their problems will never end, or they just don't want to live life anymore...and they don't want to put up with it..

Today in church, our pastor talked about a statistic on what month and day people tend to die more on. January first was the day most people die. How? Suicide. They don't want to go another 12 months...its very sad..

I think holidays in general also are correlated with an increase in suicides. It's a huge reminder of things some people don't have.
It's hard to say if its justified or not..but I tend to think that you can always better your situation, unless you're terminally I'll.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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1/3/2016 11:51:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In or thru religion or race suicide can be justified even glorified. Suicide bombers , kamikaze . that's self sacrifice. Only to us . To them it's honor. Grandeur. There getting the rewards. But its still self sacrifice. So to the person committing suicide its justified. To us never .
RyuuKyuzo
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1/4/2016 1:07:24 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Risk of suicide spikes at both ends of social solidarity. Both people who feel very isolated and very connected are more likely to kill themselves than those in the "middle". Isolated people are obviously more likely to kill themselves due to depression and highly connected people are more likely to kill themselves for altruistic reasons (think of a soldier diving over a grenade to save his brothers-in-arms).

I think suicide is justifiable if done for altruistic reasons (if necessary), and also in response to a terminal disease with no reasonable hope of recovery. However, depression is a bad reason to kill yourself. Firstly, a very large number of people who attempt suicide do so impulsively;

"many suicidal acts " one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies " are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour."

Furthermore, the vast majority of people (90%) who try to kill themselves but fail, don't go on to try again. They change their minds about it after the fact and are glad they didn't actually die. Also very important to note, you're very, very unlikely to succeed. For every one successful suicide attempt, there are 25 failures. I remember as a kid watching a documentary about a man who tried to kill himself by drinking bleach. He failed, but the doctors had to put his esophagus on the outside of his ribcage so he could manually push his food down into his stomach because it could no longer push food down on its own.

I've been suicidal before, and the memory of that documentary kept me from ever going through with it, because as bad as things were, I knew they'd be worse if I tried and failed.

If you're feeling suicidal, you're better off talking to your friends and family, and maybe seeking professional help if that isn't enough.

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Illegalcombatant
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1/4/2016 6:42:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

I'll commit suicide because... I want to?

Isn't that justification enough? What do you mean or need in order to satisfy the condition of 'justified'? My non-cognitivism senses are tingling....

I think he has a point. I didn't see it as first, the mere question of can suicide be justified sounds like some one needs to justify the act, and absent a justification...........what ? we force people to live ? we don't give people choice ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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1/4/2016 1:48:55 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 7:35:14 AM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:55:00 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In response to the first question, the one in the title (can suicide be justified), I think it depends. In really extenuating circumstances, if you have parental consent, I guess so.

Something like terminal illness?
Only if the person is in extreme pain and agony.
But in response to what you've written in your OP, no. What you should do is work on those factors you mentioned and try to fit in society as best you can... suicide is immoral and by no means justified in this situation.

The example ruled out treatment. The best they can do might not be enough.
What is the grounds for saying that the best they can do might not be enough? You were right in saying that we evolved to be societal... so we have an innate capacity to be societal. The person may need to seek help, a lot of it, from others - but at the end of the day, there is no dead end.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Benshapiro
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1/5/2016 8:01:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 11:11:46 PM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
I am thinking of justification in the sense that there is considerable suffering which will not subside, to the point where death is preferable. I wouldn't consider something like losing an iphone to be a good reason for suicide, but would consider having a terminal illness to be a good reason. One is impulsive, the other is because there exists considerable suffering. I am asking if that can be transferred into someone with the pain of their inability to fulfill societal factors.

I reactivated my account just to comment on this (DDO is a time sink but I still find myself lurking the forums). Yes, a person with severe and irreparable cognitive/social deficits that causes them to have negative well-being on net balance would be justified in committing suicide *in the sense that death would be preferable to their suffering*. Would it be justified considering the long term effects on others that love you and who have done no harm to you? No. Once you have an understanding of the level of suffering that other people would endure you're held morally responsible for that suffering if you decided to commit suicide anyway. This goes into deeper issues like "well, I didn't choose to exist, so it's selfish of them to want me to be alive just for their peace of mind while I'm in such a chronic state of suffering". That point has merit. Ultimately, it can't be justified (morally) as in "the right thing to do" but it can be *understood*.

I myself have chronic social anxiety (I'd describe it always being socially uncomfortable) along with a negative self-image and on net my daily well-being is probably 0 or negative. The importance that underlies social interaction is the love. Once you isolate yourself from social interaction you isolate yourself from love as well.
n7
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1/5/2016 9:37:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 8:01:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/3/2016 11:11:46 PM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
I am thinking of justification in the sense that there is considerable suffering which will not subside, to the point where death is preferable. I wouldn't consider something like losing an iphone to be a good reason for suicide, but would consider having a terminal illness to be a good reason. One is impulsive, the other is because there exists considerable suffering. I am asking if that can be transferred into someone with the pain of their inability to fulfill societal factors.

I reactivated my account just to comment on this (DDO is a time sink but I still find myself lurking the forums). Yes, a person with severe and irreparable cognitive/social deficits that causes them to have negative well-being on net balance would be justified in committing suicide *in the sense that death would be preferable to their suffering*. Would it be justified considering the long term effects on others that love you and who have done no harm to you? No. Once you have an understanding of the level of suffering that other people would endure you're held morally responsible for that suffering if you decided to commit suicide anyway. This goes into deeper issues like "well, I didn't choose to exist, so it's selfish of them to want me to be alive just for their peace of mind while I'm in such a chronic state of suffering". That point has merit. Ultimately, it can't be justified (morally) as in "the right thing to do" but it can be *understood*.

But it's not like it's impossible that they wont move on and accept the person's death. If someone is a burden on their loved ones, or doesn't have loved ones it still may be better overall
I myself have chronic social anxiety (I'd describe it always being socially uncomfortable) along with a negative self-image and on net my daily well-being is probably 0 or negative. The importance that underlies social interaction is the love. Once you isolate yourself from social interaction you isolate yourself from love as well.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
n7
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1/5/2016 9:39:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 1:48:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 7:35:14 AM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:55:00 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In response to the first question, the one in the title (can suicide be justified), I think it depends. In really extenuating circumstances, if you have parental consent, I guess so.

Something like terminal illness?
Only if the person is in extreme pain and agony.
But in response to what you've written in your OP, no. What you should do is work on those factors you mentioned and try to fit in society as best you can... suicide is immoral and by no means justified in this situation.

The example ruled out treatment. The best they can do might not be enough.
What is the grounds for saying that the best they can do might not be enough? You were right in saying that we evolved to be societal... so we have an innate capacity to be societal. The person may need to seek help, a lot of it, from others - but at the end of the day, there is no dead end.

The grounds for that are simple, they may not be able to afford treatment, or the condition itself may prevent them from getting help.
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Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Benshapiro
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1/5/2016 10:03:51 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 9:37:36 PM, n7 wrote:
At 1/5/2016 8:01:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 1/3/2016 11:11:46 PM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 12:13:07 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
I am thinking of justification in the sense that there is considerable suffering which will not subside, to the point where death is preferable. I wouldn't consider something like losing an iphone to be a good reason for suicide, but would consider having a terminal illness to be a good reason. One is impulsive, the other is because there exists considerable suffering. I am asking if that can be transferred into someone with the pain of their inability to fulfill societal factors.

I reactivated my account just to comment on this (DDO is a time sink but I still find myself lurking the forums). Yes, a person with severe and irreparable cognitive/social deficits that causes them to have negative well-being on net balance would be justified in committing suicide *in the sense that death would be preferable to their suffering*. Would it be justified considering the long term effects on others that love you and who have done no harm to you? No. Once you have an understanding of the level of suffering that other people would endure you're held morally responsible for that suffering if you decided to commit suicide anyway. This goes into deeper issues like "well, I didn't choose to exist, so it's selfish of them to want me to be alive just for their peace of mind while I'm in such a chronic state of suffering". That point has merit. Ultimately, it can't be justified (morally) as in "the right thing to do" but it can be *understood*.

But it's not like it's impossible that they wont move on and accept the person's death. If someone is a burden on their loved ones, or doesn't have loved ones it still may be better overall

Sure, they could move on from it, but that isn't a basis for justification. People can move on from all kinds of tragic events. That doesn't mean that people are justified in causing tragic events.

We can't know that the person wouldn't have changed, what implications that person's actions have on an afterlife if there is one, how they would've affected other people, what new treatments result from technological advances, etc.

I myself have chronic social anxiety (I'd describe it always being socially uncomfortable) along with a negative self-image and on net my daily well-being is probably 0 or negative. The importance that underlies social interaction is the love. Once you isolate yourself from social interaction you isolate yourself from love as well.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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1/6/2016 3:21:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/5/2016 9:39:32 PM, n7 wrote:
At 1/4/2016 1:48:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 7:35:14 AM, n7 wrote:
At 1/3/2016 4:55:00 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

In response to the first question, the one in the title (can suicide be justified), I think it depends. In really extenuating circumstances, if you have parental consent, I guess so.

Something like terminal illness?
Only if the person is in extreme pain and agony.
But in response to what you've written in your OP, no. What you should do is work on those factors you mentioned and try to fit in society as best you can... suicide is immoral and by no means justified in this situation.

The example ruled out treatment. The best they can do might not be enough.
What is the grounds for saying that the best they can do might not be enough? You were right in saying that we evolved to be societal... so we have an innate capacity to be societal. The person may need to seek help, a lot of it, from others - but at the end of the day, there is no dead end.

The grounds for that are simple, they may not be able to afford treatment, or the condition itself may prevent them from getting help.

I don't know about the West, but here I'm pretty sure their are NGOs that can help them with that.
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Yassine
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1/8/2016 4:21:25 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/3/2016 3:37:48 AM, n7 wrote:
Dismissing cases of suicide by self sacrifice (jumping on a grenade,The Chernobyl Three, ect) can you conceive of a case where suicide is justified? Is the case below an example of such?

Modern society has many core factors which can enhance life for those who do well in fulfilling those factors. Intellect, attractiveness, social interaction skills, ect. However the catch is that those who have cannot fulfill these (lower than average intellect, severe agoraphobia/social anxiety, and the like) will have a difficult time experiencing social reality to its fullest. If treatment isn't available or isn't working, said individuals may not experience an enjoyable life. It quite possibly is a life not worth living.

We evolved be societal, if one cannot be societal, does this justify suicide?

- Short answer: no, that would entail everyone in the same situation or worse ought to end their lives! Which might amount to half the human race.

- Long answer: given that I am Muslim, I'll share my worldview of things. In Shari'a, there are unjustified types of suicide, which are prohibited ; & others no unjustified. I mean by Suicide self-inflicted death in general, intentional or not.

- First, there are three types of Suicide:
A. Unintentional Suicide. (like someone falling off a cliff by mistake) => not unjustified suicide (generally).
B. Intentional Suicide.
C. Quasi-intentional Suicide. (such as if someone tried to kill himself with a fake knife & succeeded). => quite complicated.

- The most relevant one here is type (B.). Intentional Suicide is also three kinds:

I. Deliberate Suicide (called Intihar), which is also three types:
1. Positive Suicide: case of killing oneself, such as shooting one's head, or going into fire, or jumping into the deep ocean, or drinking poison. => unjustified Suicide.
2. Negative Suicide: case of not saving oneself while it can be saved, such as not eating until death, or not trying to get out of a fire (if possible). => unjustified Suicide.
3. Neutral Suicide: case of not saving oneself while there is doubt about the possibility of saving it, such as not taking a particular treatment for a disease (the success of which is not 100%), or being negligent about on'"s sickness.

II. Purposive Suicide, which is divided into few types:
1. "Substitutive" Suicide: case of moving from one type of death to another, such as jumping from a burning ship into the ocean, both are deadly, but the latter is less painful.
2. Sacrificial Suicide: which has two types of cases:
i. Sacrificing oneself to kill the many (in the arena of the battlefield).
ii. Sacrificing oneself to save the many, such as a diseased person who jumps off a ship to prevent others from getting infected.

III. Quasi-deliberate Suicide, which also has few types:
1. Commanded Suicide: which has two types of cases:
i. If one asks another to kill him (or something of that sort). => unjustified Suicide.
ii. If one asks another to kill himself (or something like that). => unjustified Suicide.
2. Coerced Suicide: case of being compelled by force to kill oneself, & it has few types of cases:
i. Critical Suicide: such as if a person says to another: "kill yourself or I"'l kill your son here".
ii. Uncritical Suicide: such as if a person says to another: "kill yourself or I'll take your money". (that's not a compelling enough reason to count as valid coercion) => unjustified Suicide.
iii. Void Suicide: such as if a person says to another: "kill yourself or I'll kill you". => unjustified Suicide.
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