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On a secular way to detect God

themohawkninja
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2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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2/20/2016 4:20:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
You misrepresent countable infinity. It merely addresses the ability to recognize things at any given point even though the points themselves are infinite or you could go on counting forever.
You're using a false analogy fallacy to establish what constitutes infinite in regards to Gods power. Mathematics exists in mind only. God doesn't, theoretically speaking the approach to your establishing a connection and the end question is fallacious. A non sequitur as it were.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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2/20/2016 4:37:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:20:52 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
You misrepresent countable infinity. It merely addresses the ability to recognize things at any given point even though the points themselves are infinite or you could go on counting forever.
You're using a false analogy fallacy to establish what constitutes infinite in regards to Gods power. Mathematics exists in mind only. God doesn't, theoretically speaking the approach to your establishing a connection and the end question is fallacious. A non sequitur as it were.

So what if math exists in the mind only? I'm having trouble understanding your point.

If the Bible makes the claim that God has an infinite amount of power, and we make the assumption that there is some way to detect that power, then we should be able to detect said power if and only if there are noticeable differences in a given unit volume.

A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/20/2016 4:37:49 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:20:52 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
You misrepresent countable infinity. It merely addresses the ability to recognize things at any given point even though the points themselves are infinite or you could go on counting forever.
You're using a false analogy fallacy to establish what constitutes infinite in regards to Gods power. Mathematics exists in mind only. God doesn't, theoretically speaking the approach to your establishing a connection and the end question is fallacious. A non sequitur as it were.

So what if math exists in the mind only? I'm having trouble understanding your point.

If the Bible makes the claim that God has an infinite amount of power, and we make the assumption that there is some way to detect that power, then we should be able to detect said power if and only if there are noticeable differences in a given unit volume.
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.
A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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2/21/2016 5:39:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:37:49 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:20:52 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
You misrepresent countable infinity. It merely addresses the ability to recognize things at any given point even though the points themselves are infinite or you could go on counting forever.
You're using a false analogy fallacy to establish what constitutes infinite in regards to Gods power. Mathematics exists in mind only. God doesn't, theoretically speaking the approach to your establishing a connection and the end question is fallacious. A non sequitur as it were.

So what if math exists in the mind only? I'm having trouble understanding your point.

If the Bible makes the claim that God has an infinite amount of power, and we make the assumption that there is some way to detect that power, then we should be able to detect said power if and only if there are noticeable differences in a given unit volume.
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.

Isn't that only if God is omnipotent by means of being able to do the logically impossible? Or am I missing a Bible quote here?

A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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2/22/2016 4:28:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/21/2016 5:39:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:37:49 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/20/2016 4:20:52 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/20/2016 1:11:47 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
Hello,

As I have come to understand, the mainstream view in philosophy with regards to the "is God real" debate, is that God is unfalsifiable, and therefore there isn't much worth debating. I tend to agree with this, and I would like to add to this.

Let's take two of the qualities of the Judeo-Christian deity: Infinite power, and infinite reach. If we were to go about trying to prove the existence of such a God by empirical means, we come across a fairly large issue, that of "what kind of infinity are we talking about here?"

You see, in mathematics, there are two kinds of infinity: Countable, and uncountable. Countable infinity, for example, would be all whole numbers, as you can count each and every one of them, albeit in an infinite amount of time. Uncountable infinities would be, for example, all real numbers, as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, and therefore you could never finish the set, because just your starting point would be 0.000...01 whereby the ellipsis represents an infinite number of zeros.

Now, to apply this to our proof of God, if we make the assumption that an infinitely powerful and infinitely reaching deity has some sort of detectable energy that its' influence exerts, we come up to the big issue. If such a deity has an uncountably infinite amount of power, then that means that their power will be spread evenly, at a infinite (either form of infinity) magnitude across each unit volume in the universe, and therefore would be undetectable, as you couldn't discern differences.

However, if such a deity has a countably infinite amount of power, then it could potentially be spread unevenly over an infinite area as each unit volume has a finite amount of energy, and therefore differences could potentially be discerned.

So therefore, I will now ask the question (in addition to, does what I am saying make any sense): How infinite is God's power?
You misrepresent countable infinity. It merely addresses the ability to recognize things at any given point even though the points themselves are infinite or you could go on counting forever.
You're using a false analogy fallacy to establish what constitutes infinite in regards to Gods power. Mathematics exists in mind only. God doesn't, theoretically speaking the approach to your establishing a connection and the end question is fallacious. A non sequitur as it were.

So what if math exists in the mind only? I'm having trouble understanding your point.

If the Bible makes the claim that God has an infinite amount of power, and we make the assumption that there is some way to detect that power, then we should be able to detect said power if and only if there are noticeable differences in a given unit volume.
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.

Isn't that only if God is omnipotent by means of being able to do the logically impossible? Or am I missing a Bible quote here?
What makes you think "human logic" is something that has a limit? That's an assumption which you cannot prove is a valid train of thought. Just because humans use a kind of logic doesn't mean that we perceive logic in a way that it ISN'T possibly beyond our understanding. Did I say that right? We may think logic seems absolute, but even in logic terms and limitations in the languages used reveal absurdities. Valid in logic can result in something that is ridiculous, valid in the real world is synonymous with the word "sound". Sound in logic however is as of yet not ridiculous. That in itself shows logic may simply be manipulating language not manipulating possibilities.
A perfect example would be the square circle example. God could merely change the perception of all of humanity to a point where square circle isn't logically impossible. Humans couldn't detect the change in perception. Us not knowing anything different, the result being making a square circle no longer "logically impossible".
A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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2/22/2016 4:42:37 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/22/2016 4:28:34 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:39:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.

Isn't that only if God is omnipotent by means of being able to do the logically impossible? Or am I missing a Bible quote here?
What makes you think "human logic" is something that has a limit? That's an assumption which you cannot prove is a valid train of thought. Just because humans use a kind of logic doesn't mean that we perceive logic in a way that it ISN'T possibly beyond our understanding. Did I say that right? We may think logic seems absolute, but even in logic terms and limitations in the languages used reveal absurdities. Valid in logic can result in something that is ridiculous, valid in the real world is synonymous with the word "sound". Sound in logic however is as of yet not ridiculous. That in itself shows logic may simply be manipulating language not manipulating possibilities.
A perfect example would be the square circle example. God could merely change the perception of all of humanity to a point where square circle isn't logically impossible. Humans couldn't detect the change in perception. Us not knowing anything different, the result being making a square circle no longer "logically impossible".

All I was asking was: Is the statement: "Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand" only valid if we are talking about a god that can do the logically impossible. I'm not talking about "human logic" (whatever that is), but logic itself. Changing human perception of logic, doesn't make that thing any less logical. If I told you that a circle is a square, and you thought that was logical (without a god doing anything), that wouldn't make it logical. For a square circle to be logically valid, a god would need to change the underlying axioms that logic is based on to make that work.

A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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2/22/2016 7:44:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/22/2016 4:42:37 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/22/2016 4:28:34 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:39:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.

Isn't that only if God is omnipotent by means of being able to do the logically impossible? Or am I missing a Bible quote here?
What makes you think "human logic" is something that has a limit? That's an assumption which you cannot prove is a valid train of thought. Just because humans use a kind of logic doesn't mean that we perceive logic in a way that it ISN'T possibly beyond our understanding. Did I say that right? We may think logic seems absolute, but even in logic terms and limitations in the languages used reveal absurdities. Valid in logic can result in something that is ridiculous, valid in the real world is synonymous with the word "sound". Sound in logic however is as of yet not ridiculous. That in itself shows logic may simply be manipulating language not manipulating possibilities.
A perfect example would be the square circle example. God could merely change the perception of all of humanity to a point where square circle isn't logically impossible. Humans couldn't detect the change in perception. Us not knowing anything different, the result being making a square circle no longer "logically impossible".

All I was asking was: Is the statement: "Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand" only valid if we are talking about a god that can do the logically impossible. I'm not talking about "human logic" (whatever that is), but logic itself. Changing human perception of logic, doesn't make that thing any less logical. If I told you that a circle is a square, and you thought that was logical (without a god doing anything), that wouldn't make it logical. For a square circle to be logically valid, a god would need to change the underlying axioms that logic is based on to make that work.
Human Logic is what you and I understand as logical. That doesn't mean God is limited by something humans understand. Yes, God changing our perception of logic and what a circle or square is would make a square circle logical if God did as you said, change the underlying axioms of "human logic". But we can't assume that humans idea of logic is the only logic there is or could be.
We could also assume that logic is an aspect of Gods wisdom that is unchanging. Which would negate a square circle as being anything other than a contradiction. It would be like asking God to not be God to prove God is God. Anyone can use words to create an absurdity and play intellectually dishonest word games. Like God making an inescapable prison and putting himself in it. By definition that's asking God to show he's all powerful by NOT being able to escape something. Its nothing but word games. It isn't logical even to us people.
A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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2/22/2016 8:43:14 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/22/2016 7:44:29 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/22/2016 4:42:37 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/22/2016 4:28:34 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 2/21/2016 5:39:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/21/2016 12:57:43 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
I didn't say you couldn't see an example of Gods power. Its just not analogous to a number line where you can identify it at any given point. Some power may be beyond human understanding. Your infinite number set always has a point that is understood by people. Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand.

Isn't that only if God is omnipotent by means of being able to do the logically impossible? Or am I missing a Bible quote here?
What makes you think "human logic" is something that has a limit? That's an assumption which you cannot prove is a valid train of thought. Just because humans use a kind of logic doesn't mean that we perceive logic in a way that it ISN'T possibly beyond our understanding. Did I say that right? We may think logic seems absolute, but even in logic terms and limitations in the languages used reveal absurdities. Valid in logic can result in something that is ridiculous, valid in the real world is synonymous with the word "sound". Sound in logic however is as of yet not ridiculous. That in itself shows logic may simply be manipulating language not manipulating possibilities.
A perfect example would be the square circle example. God could merely change the perception of all of humanity to a point where square circle isn't logically impossible. Humans couldn't detect the change in perception. Us not knowing anything different, the result being making a square circle no longer "logically impossible".

All I was asking was: Is the statement: "Gods power is by definition an inclusion of the possibility that it can go beyond what we understand" only valid if we are talking about a god that can do the logically impossible. I'm not talking about "human logic" (whatever that is), but logic itself. Changing human perception of logic, doesn't make that thing any less logical. If I told you that a circle is a square, and you thought that was logical (without a god doing anything), that wouldn't make it logical. For a square circle to be logically valid, a god would need to change the underlying axioms that logic is based on to make that work.
Human Logic is what you and I understand as logical. That doesn't mean God is limited by something humans understand. Yes, God changing our perception of logic and what a circle or square is would make a square circle logical if God did as you said, change the underlying axioms of "human logic". But we can't assume that humans idea of logic is the only logic there is or could be.

I get the feeling this discussion is going to parallel the question of "is time real", because I could make the statement that "human logic is the only logic, because logic is a human made concept", but I'm not sure if that's a valid statement.

Like, I could make the claim that A=A, only because insofar as we (as humans) can tell, A has been, is, and will always equal to A, because all properties of A that give A it's A-ness have been, is, and will always be equal to all properties of A that give A it's A-ness.

We could also assume that logic is an aspect of Gods wisdom that is unchanging. Which would negate a square circle as being anything other than a contradiction. It would be like asking God to not be God to prove God is God. Anyone can use words to create an absurdity and play intellectually dishonest word games. Like God making an inescapable prison and putting himself in it. By definition that's asking God to show he's all powerful by NOT being able to escape something. Its nothing but word games. It isn't logical even to us people.

I'm not really sure how a paradox is intellectually dishonest.

That being said, if logic is unchanging, does that imply that there is therefore something that God cannot change?

A scientist makes the claim that a star has a given amount of energy, and we can detect that energy by detecting noticeable differences in a given unit volume. Why should the fact that there are infinities involved make a difference?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
keithprosser
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2/28/2016 7:26:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
A perfect example would be the square circle example. God could merely change the perception of all of humanity to a point where square circle isn't logically impossible. Humans couldn't detect the change in perception. Us not knowing anything different, the result being making a square circle no longer "logically impossible".

God could possibly make humans blind to the difference between squares and circles, but that would mean people would put square wheels to their bikes and not realise anything was wrong.... until they tried to ride them.

Squares are fundamentally different from circles - its not just a matter of perception. To make circles and squares the same thing would require a complete overhaul of the fabric of reality. No doubt god could do that too, but that is not what was being said.