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Consciousness

Quadrunner
Posts: 1,159
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4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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4/9/2016 10:09:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Why wouldn't you?
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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4/10/2016 12:35:51 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Keep in mind the distinction between free will and agency. Agency just requires you to be able to act against your own biological programing, but this requires awareness. It could very well be the case that you have consciousness thanks to having agency, but outside of making our particular species more likely to survive, this agency grants us nothing in the way of true free will and in essence we've merely been gifted with a sort of front-row seat to the specific predetermined unfolding of the life your body will live.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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4/10/2016 3:02:03 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

If weight is just nigh weightless atoms, then why are things heavy?
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,159
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4/10/2016 5:27:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/10/2016 3:02:03 AM, n7 wrote:
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

If weight is just nigh weightless atoms, then why are things heavy?

That's seems like a poor analogy. All of those atoms have weight, so it makes sense that the more atoms you have the more weight you have. The more you have of something the more something you have.

You can't apply that towards consciousness assuming before there was nothing and now there is something. You're basically saying that everything is a little conscious if you want to claim a parallel.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,159
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4/10/2016 5:44:16 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 10:09:05 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Why wouldn't you?

There is no known biological advantage to being conscious that I am doing what I am doing to survive. A puppet can make things only as well as allowed by what controls it. Assuming all that I am is a puppet of natural order, there is no reason to witness what I am. So that lead to my question, why am I conscious that I am?

There is reason for my actions and my thoughts as a natural puppet, but there is no reason whatsoever for the atoms within me to be conscious. Surely they could continue whatever reactions are required to continue the cycle of life without my having a concept of life.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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4/10/2016 11:13:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

it could be that your premise is lacking.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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4/10/2016 11:24:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Are you? Maybe it's just that consciousness lags behind autonomic mental processes of which consciousness is unaware, giving the impression that it's in charge and making decisions. Do you decide to make your heart beat, or regulate your bowels? Do you decide to see or hear? What is your impression of consciousness demonstrably responsible for?
SpiritandTruth
Posts: 2,315
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4/11/2016 12:57:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Microcosm of the universe, how infinite. What chaos.

The act of observation immediately creates a situation to where it is impossible to account for everything that is going on. Any conclusion on the matter would intrinsically be tied to whatever tool was being used to make the assessment.

If the observer is so integral to all this, the nature of observation becomes integral. When the observer begins to observe observation, it becomes clear that purification of the heart is integral. When the heart is pure, the Truth is realized.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of the will of God. The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth,
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/12/2016 4:00:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

That's the big question isn't it? Either the premise is wrong, or there is a hard problem that is unexplained, and probably unexplainable.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/12/2016 4:28:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/9/2016 10:09:05 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Why wouldn't you?

That's supposed to be an answer, seriously?

How about the reason it wouldn't be is there is no reason to think a purely physical process would or could give rise to a subjective state. Do you think two billard balls colliding involves billiard ball awareness? If not, then why would you think that at some arbitrary level of complexity physical processes involve awareness? The question becomes, at what level of complexity does subjective experience occur, and why?

Taken together, the concept of causality and the conservation law implies that nothing can exist that has not always existed in some attenuated form. So you either attribute consciousness to matter, which is Panpsychism, or you try to explain the when, where, what, how and why of it coming into existence in purely physical and materialistic terms, which is a hard problem to solve.

"Why wouldn"t you" is just an inane non-sequitur.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
difference
Posts: 177
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4/13/2016 2:21:14 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
If chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws is all "you" are, it may be that consciousness is not dependent or related to "you".
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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4/13/2016 4:23:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/10/2016 11:24:29 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Are you?

Are you saying you aren't? Our state of conscious awareness is a feature that trumps all others in the matter of epistemic authority, there is certainly no valid reason to question it.

Maybe it's just that consciousness lags behind autonomic mental processes of which consciousness is unaware, giving the impression that it's in charge and making decisions.

Or maybe you could just get real. The strongest argument for the existence of our own conscious state is that we all observe it during every conscious moment, it is a fundamental and significant part of our experiential reality at all times, hence it is self-evident.

Do you decide to make your heart beat, or regulate your bowels?

I don't know about you, but I certainly decide to regulate my bowels, are you unconscious and incontinent?

Do you decide to see or hear?

I decide what to look at or listen to.

What is your impression of consciousness demonstrably responsible for?

From an evolutionary perspective, consciousness would not have evolved if it wasn't adaptive, so it must have had adaptive biological value and it's pretty clear it added value by beneficially changing behavior. The altered behavior would necessarily have enhanced the organism"s ability to survive, reproduce, and perpetuate its existence.

As such, consciousness is demonstrably responsible for adaptive behavior, decision-making, planning, and generally responding in non-automatic ways. It is the source of thoughts, intentional actions, decisions, plans, and a host of advantageous activities and behaviors.

Consciousness is demonstrably responsible for integrating individual and autonomous neural activities, sensations, and information processing activities into a single unified experience that connects brain and body states with external occurrences. We know when and where to walk, when to speak and what to say, when to eat, drink, eliminate, and sleep because consciousness coordinates these actions with events in the outside world allowing planned, guided, and organized action.

Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates, so it can help us prioritize actions properly, experienced qualia such as pain and hunger provide a motivating influence so that functions affecting survival are attended to in a temporally appropriate manner. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state or automatic response, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state or automatic response.

Consciousness provides a single unified experience over time that we refer to as "self", providing the ability to unify particular experiences in order to establish continuity of self over time, creating the capacity to relate the continual stream of temporal experiences, recall antecedent experiences, and make temporal and spatial comparisons of the contents of experience. This provides us the abilities to compare and contrast remembered past and possible future experiences, foresee the consequences of associated actions and decisions, and act accordingly.

In the end, consciousness has a demonstrable subjective, first-person causal power because it is teleological in nature, which is to say it is purposeful, it provides us with the ability to select a course of action as a means of fulfilling some desire, including planning the future, selecting among alternatives, and determining the means by which we will achieve goals consistent with a conscious ability to judge some ends as "good" or worth pursuing, and value them.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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4/13/2016 9:00:17 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/13/2016 4:23:07 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 4/10/2016 11:24:29 PM, autocorrect wrote:
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Are you?

Are you saying you aren't? Our state of conscious awareness is a feature that trumps all others in the matter of epistemic authority, there is certainly no valid reason to question it.

Despite what you've written below - it's difficult to pin down, particularly with regard to the problem of free will - in relation to the ostensibly causal nature of reality. What's interesting about this is that, human consciousness is the first genuine addition to the contents of the universe in 14 billion years or so. Cause and effect and cause and effect and cause and suddenly, creativity! My question was based upon extending the causal paradigm - and explaining consciousness (and free will) as an illusion. Neat as this may be - I'm not really serious.

Maybe it's just that consciousness lags behind autonomic mental processes of which consciousness is unaware, giving the impression that it's in charge and making decisions.

The idea is that we are causal robots - with an impression of consciousness, that is in fact a post-rationalization of what we were going to do anyway as the effect of the causal relationships between our physiology and various stimuli. The answer to this - or refutation, I rather suspect rests with chaos theory and quantum indeterminacy. Your arguments here are good:

From an evolutionary perspective, consciousness would not have evolved if it wasn't adaptive, so it must have had adaptive biological value and it's pretty clear it added value by beneficially changing behavior. The altered behavior would necessarily have enhanced the organism"s ability to survive, reproduce, and perpetuate its existence.

As such, consciousness is demonstrably responsible for adaptive behavior, decision-making, planning, and generally responding in non-automatic ways. It is the source of thoughts, intentional actions, decisions, plans, and a host of advantageous activities and behaviors.

Consciousness is demonstrably responsible for integrating individual and autonomous neural activities, sensations, and information processing activities into a single unified experience that connects brain and body states with external occurrences. We know when and where to walk, when to speak and what to say, when to eat, drink, eliminate, and sleep because consciousness coordinates these actions with events in the outside world allowing planned, guided, and organized action.

Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, not solely because of the physical aspects of its neural correlates, so it can help us prioritize actions properly, experienced qualia such as pain and hunger provide a motivating influence so that functions affecting survival are attended to in a temporally appropriate manner. A conscious state includes a desire or intention, it includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. That makes it more than a purely physical state or automatic response, it is a conscious state with reference to a future possibility, and no such reference is part of any purely physical state or automatic response.

Consciousness provides a single unified experience over time that we refer to as "self", providing the ability to unify particular experiences in order to establish continuity of self over time, creating the capacity to relate the continual stream of temporal experiences, recall antecedent experiences, and make temporal and spatial comparisons of the contents of experience. This provides us the abilities to compare and contrast remembered past and possible future experiences, foresee the consequences of associated actions and decisions, and act accordingly.

In the end, consciousness has a demonstrable subjective, first-person causal power because it is teleological in nature, which is to say it is purposeful, it provides us with the ability to select a course of action as a means of fulfilling some desire, including planning the future, selecting among alternatives, and determining the means by which we will achieve goals consistent with a conscious ability to judge some ends as "good" or worth pursuing, and value them.

...but they could all be explained away if consciousness were a backward looking illusion due to the time lag between causal effect and awareness the effect had occurred. Again, I don't really believe this - it's just an interesting philosophical problem.
All that said, it occurs to me I need to urinate - and may as well put the kettle on; and these seem quite spontaneous causes effecting my subsequent behaviour.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,054
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4/16/2016 8:23:37 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
What would be the point of evolving an after the fact rationaliser? S is right that being conscious is an advantage because it allows us to interact with our environment, which may contain food, a potential mate or a predator and use our memory and inteligence to bear on the matter.

I take issue with 'just' a chemical reaction and physics. Qr is not just a chemical reaction like burning hydrogen to get water.It is impossible to write down the chemical formula for what goes on in a single cell of qrs body... It would take housands or millions of symbols, far too many to be compressible to any human. Qr is not asimple reaction like oxidation. He is a million reaction and a billion interactions, operating in a self organising hierarchy of bewildering complexity. Burning h2 to get water doesn't produce consciousness, but does that mean the billion symbol chemical reaction that is qr can't either?

I don't know, and I suspect no one does
... We just have opinions!
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/20/2016 3:23:22 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Humans are self-aware, conscious. We have the ability to choose against our programming.

Mankind as a whole do not follow natural laws. Humans are perverse and corrupt. We have created a different world than the natural world. Mankinds world. And that world just churns out more unnatural and perverse generations than the one before.
Trollord
Posts: 275
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4/21/2016 12:09:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/9/2016 9:30:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Premise - All of life is a complex chemistry/physics driven coincidence

If all I am is just chemical reactions and physics that follows natural laws why am I conscious that I am?

Just seems legit.

(playing devil's advocate)