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Do holes exist?

keithprosser
Posts: 1,968
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5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/13/2016 11:26:33 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?

I suppose I have a bad influence on others lol
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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5/13/2016 11:47:28 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Do vacuums exist? Does darkness exist? Does coldness exist?

I think all those words just describe the lack of something existing. It doesn't characterize a thing -- rather the absence of a thing.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,968
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5/14/2016 4:08:02 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I think all those words just describe the lack of something existing. It doesn't characterize a thing -- rather the absence of a thing.

Is that a 'No'?
user13579
Posts: 822
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5/14/2016 6:14:30 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?

If holes don't exist, then that's a "hole" in the concept of existence. But if there's a hole in the concept of existence, then holes exist. If you assume holes don't exist, you get a paradox. Therefore holes exist.
Science in a nutshell:
"Facts are neither true nor false. They simply are."
"All scientific knowledge is provisional. Even facts are provisional."
"We can be absolutely certain that we have a moon, we can be absolutely certain that water is made out of H2O, and we can be absolutely certain that the Earth is a sphere!"
"Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty -- some most unsure, some nearly sure, none absolutely certain."
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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5/14/2016 10:09:27 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/14/2016 4:08:02 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think all those words just describe the lack of something existing. It doesn't characterize a thing -- rather the absence of a thing.

Is that a 'No'?

I would say it's a concept, rather than a physical object. Though you could define a hole as being "a sudden and dramatic decrease in elevation" in which case it would be a physical thing. hm...
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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5/15/2016 10:43:30 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/14/2016 10:09:27 PM, Cobalt wrote:
At 5/14/2016 4:08:02 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think all those words just describe the lack of something existing. It doesn't characterize a thing -- rather the absence of a thing.

Is that a 'No'?

I would say it's a concept, rather than a physical object. Though you could define a hole as being "a sudden and dramatic decrease in elevation" in which case it would be a physical thing. hm...

But does the fact it is a concept rather than a physical thing make it any less real?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/15/2016 3:06:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?

My take is that there is a whole category of things which do not consist of matter but do exist. Most of them are concepts. For instance an idea can exist in your head but an idea is not made of matter. A hole is a concept that describes the lack of surrounding matter, so although a hole is not made of matter it must exist because we can climb through a hole. Similar objects are shadows and rainbows (in fact color itself exists only as a perception and does not exist objectively).
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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5/15/2016 4:54:14 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?

A black hole
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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5/15/2016 6:20:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.

Though again does the fact it does not exist instantly relegate it to being nothing more than an idea? As an example dodos do not currently exist, but would you categorise them as an idea, or an object which just does not currently exist?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/15/2016 7:49:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 6:20:34 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.

Though again does the fact it does not exist instantly relegate it to being nothing more than an idea? As an example dodos do not currently exist, but would you categorise them as an idea, or an object which just does not currently exist?

i would say the latter. An object which does not currently exist.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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5/15/2016 7:55:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 7:49:12 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:20:34 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.

Though again does the fact it does not exist instantly relegate it to being nothing more than an idea? As an example dodos do not currently exist, but would you categorise them as an idea, or an object which just does not currently exist?

i would say the latter. An object which does not currently exist.

But if tomorrow a scientist announced that he was going to create a unicorn from some bizarre experiment with a horse and a narwhal would you continue to class it as an idea or would it become an object which does not currently exist?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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5/15/2016 8:10:43 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 7:55:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:49:12 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:20:34 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.

Though again does the fact it does not exist instantly relegate it to being nothing more than an idea? As an example dodos do not currently exist, but would you categorise them as an idea, or an object which just does not currently exist?

i would say the latter. An object which does not currently exist.

But if tomorrow a scientist announced that he was going to create a unicorn from some bizarre experiment with a horse and a narwhal would you continue to class it as an idea or would it become an object which does not currently exist?

until he actually does it, it remains an idea.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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5/15/2016 8:12:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 8:10:43 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:55:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 7:49:12 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 6:20:34 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 5:05:29 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 5/15/2016 4:21:13 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 5/15/2016 2:11:25 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd say 'unicorns' was a concept, but unicorns don't exist.

But do objects by definition exist and concepts by definition not exist? For example I would not define unicorns as a concept, I would define unicorns as an object, just as I would a horse, however they just happen not to exist.

On the other hand I would call good and evil concepts, so would you say that there is no such thing as good and evil?

a unicorn is an idea. The idea exists but unicorns don't.
Good and evil are perceptions. Something could be perceived as good by one person and evil by another. Objectively good and evil don't exist.

Though again does the fact it does not exist instantly relegate it to being nothing more than an idea? As an example dodos do not currently exist, but would you categorise them as an idea, or an object which just does not currently exist?

i would say the latter. An object which does not currently exist.

But if tomorrow a scientist announced that he was going to create a unicorn from some bizarre experiment with a horse and a narwhal would you continue to class it as an idea or would it become an object which does not currently exist?

until he actually does it, it remains an idea.

So something remains an idea until it exists, fair enough.
bonsai
Posts: 172
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5/17/2016 4:13:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/13/2016 11:21:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Well, do holes exist? I can't help flip-flopping between yes and no. Is there a right answer?

A hole is invisible space that can't possibly be detected unless there are visible objects around them.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,864
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5/19/2016 4:58:12 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/19/2016 3:15:35 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I am still unsure as to yes or no!
Hole by definition means the absence of that which it is surrounded by. A hole in a bucket means the absence of the material the bucket is made from. The hole in the ground is the absence of the ground. The hole in your jeans is the absence of jean. The hole in a pvc pipe is the absence of pvc pipe. Does the absence of something constitute the existence of something else?
So you have to ask yourself. Do you feel lucky punk? Did I shoot five shots or six? In all the confusion I didn't count. But since this is a .44 magnum,the most powerful handgun in the world and can blow a mans head clean off, you gotta ask yourself. Do you feel lucky? Well......Go ahead make my day......
I assume this is the usage you are asking about.

Full Definition of hole
1
a : an opening through something : perforation <have a hole in my coat>
b : an area where something is missing : gap: as (1) : a serious discrepancy : flaw, weakness <some holes in your logic> (2) : an opening in a defensive formation; especially : the area of a baseball field between the positions of shortstop and third baseman (3) : a defect in a crystal (as of a semiconductor) that is due to an electron's having left its normal position in one of the crystal bonds and that is equivalent in many respects to a positively charged particle
Dirty Harry seems to think that bullet holes exist. I'm gonna side with him. Bwhaha
keithprosser
Posts: 1,968
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5/19/2016 5:45:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Semiconductor 'holes' are a good example. It is much easier to track such holes moving (say) left to right than to track the billions of electrons that are juggling around in such a way that the hole appears to move. The electrons exist, and so does their jiggling but the hole and it's 'movement' are a convenient fiction. An equation that models current in terms of the movement of holes is trivial, in terms of billions of jiggling electrons is unworkable, but surely convenience does not raise a fiction into existence.
bonsai
Posts: 172
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5/20/2016 5:13:32 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/19/2016 5:45:05 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Semiconductor 'holes' are a good example. It is much easier to track such holes moving (say) left to right than to track the billions of electrons that are juggling around in such a way that the hole appears to move. The electrons exist, and so does their jiggling but the hole and it's 'movement' are a convenient fiction. An equation that models current in terms of the movement of holes is trivial, in terms of billions of jiggling electrons is unworkable, but surely convenience does not raise a fiction into existence. : :

Thank God for the illusion called light.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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5/20/2016 10:31:40 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/14/2016 2:49:22 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
Yes, where else do guys stick their wangs?

where they push in? i dont know please explain something is fishy here
Never fart near dog
slo1
Posts: 4,330
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5/23/2016 3:50:53 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/19/2016 4:58:12 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 5/19/2016 3:15:35 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I am still unsure as to yes or no!
Hole by definition means the absence of that which it is surrounded by. A hole in a bucket means the absence of the material the bucket is made from. The hole in the ground is the absence of the ground. The hole in your jeans is the absence of jean. The hole in a pvc pipe is the absence of pvc pipe. Does the absence of something constitute the existence of something else?
So you have to ask yourself. Do you feel lucky punk? Did I shoot five shots or six? In all the confusion I didn't count. But since this is a .44 magnum,the most powerful handgun in the world and can blow a mans head clean off, you gotta ask yourself. Do you feel lucky? Well......Go ahead make my day......
I assume this is the usage you are asking about.

Full Definition of hole
1
a : an opening through something : perforation <have a hole in my coat>
b : an area where something is missing : gap: as (1) : a serious discrepancy : flaw, weakness <some holes in your logic> (2) : an opening in a defensive formation; especially : the area of a baseball field between the positions of shortstop and third baseman (3) : a defect in a crystal (as of a semiconductor) that is due to an electron's having left its normal position in one of the crystal bonds and that is equivalent in many respects to a positively charged particle
Dirty Harry seems to think that bullet holes exist. I'm gonna side with him. Bwhaha

This was exactly what I was thinking. A hole as a stand alone, does not exist, however, as context to matter it is a description that indicates disruption to the topology of an object or perforation through an object. If it didn't exist there would be no dougnuts with holes in them.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,968
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5/23/2016 4:31:51 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
This was exactly what I was thinking. A hole as a stand alone, does not exist, however, as context to matter it is a description that indicates disruption to the topology of an object or perforation through an object. If it didn't exist there would be no dougnuts with holes in them.

An unequivocal and definite no and yes! :)