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The burden of proof/

ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/12/2016 7:47:21 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
I agree in most cases, but when discussing the existence of something, I think the believer should have the burden of proof. Even if it's the disbeliever that would be making the claim. My reasoning is that it's very difficult to disproof the non-existence. I think it's the only rational way of seeking absolute truth.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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6/13/2016 2:42:07 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.
Can you prove the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim? Just thinking that saying who has the burden of proof must be a claim, so how shall we prove the burden is on the claimer?
So now I am claiming that you should be able to prove the burden of proof is on the claimer, which makes mine a claim that I now have to prove. How can I prove that you must be able to prove what it is you're claiming without me agreeing with you who has the burden of proof? Isn't it just more fun to believe every claim is true and merely discuss why an individual simply rejects it as true? For instance, if you say there are monkeys on mars I have 2 choices. Not care what you think, or discuss why you think there are and I think they're not but never really giving a ssshhhiiiitttt if there actually are.
I know we can get a popular consensus, but that would simply be an ad populum fallacy either way. Or I'm stoned and have no idea what the hell I'm trying to say....
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/13/2016 5:43:27 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
She's making an argument, and her argument is her opinion, not a claim. Is she supposed to provide evidence that she holds that opinion?
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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6/13/2016 6:02:11 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 5:43:27 AM, OlaNordmann wrote:
She's making an argument, and her argument is her opinion, not a claim. Is she supposed to provide evidence that she holds that opinion?
Was this a reply to me? If so, philosophy is love of wisdom, not love of sentimental feelings about ones opinion of the burden of proof. I was assuming she was posting this in the philosophy section to apply wisdom to the burden of proof. Hence I assumed she was saying the burden of proof can be interpreted as that which there is an application of knowledge. Knowledge isn't an opinion so I guess I just assumed she was differentiating between peoples opinion of the burden of proof and actual knowledge about the burden of proof. But if burden of proof is just an opinion then she's merely taking a poll. Which won't result in any more wisdom gained, it will result in what's the ideological slant of the majority here in DDO. It I'm usually not paying much attention when I post so I might merely be overlooking what was obvious, to you I guess.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/13/2016 7:08:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 6:02:11 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 6/13/2016 5:43:27 AM, OlaNordmann wrote:
She's making an argument, and her argument is her opinion, not a claim. Is she supposed to provide evidence that she holds that opinion?
Was this a reply to me? If so, philosophy is love of wisdom, not love of sentimental feelings about ones opinion of the burden of proof. I was assuming she was posting this in the philosophy section to apply wisdom to the burden of proof. Hence I assumed she was saying the burden of proof can be interpreted as that which there is an application of knowledge. Knowledge isn't an opinion so I guess I just assumed she was differentiating between peoples opinion of the burden of proof and actual knowledge about the burden of proof. But if burden of proof is just an opinion then she's merely taking a poll. Which won't result in any more wisdom gained, it will result in what's the ideological slant of the majority here in DDO. It I'm usually not paying much attention when I post so I might merely be overlooking what was obvious, to you I guess.

No, you're right. I completely agree with you, and looking back I should have phrased it a little differently. To clarify I didn't mean to insinuate that she has the right to her opinions without scrutiny, in fact I don't think people have a right to an opinion at all. What I meant is that if you where to ask her to rationalize why she believes that, then that would make more sense. Before she makes an actual claim ("I believe this and that is right, because ...") it would be impossible to provide actual proof/evidence, no?

I might be wrong.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/13/2016 7:18:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Sorry for double posting, I just realised I have misread OPs post. I take back everything I said.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,872
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6/13/2016 8:44:50 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/13/2016 7:08:06 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/13/2016 6:02:11 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 6/13/2016 5:43:27 AM, OlaNordmann wrote:
She's making an argument, and her argument is her opinion, not a claim. Is she supposed to provide evidence that she holds that opinion?
Was this a reply to me? If so, philosophy is love of wisdom, not love of sentimental feelings about ones opinion of the burden of proof. I was assuming she was posting this in the philosophy section to apply wisdom to the burden of proof. Hence I assumed she was saying the burden of proof can be interpreted as that which there is an application of knowledge. Knowledge isn't an opinion so I guess I just assumed she was differentiating between peoples opinion of the burden of proof and actual knowledge about the burden of proof. But if burden of proof is just an opinion then she's merely taking a poll. Which won't result in any more wisdom gained, it will result in what's the ideological slant of the majority here in DDO. It I'm usually not paying much attention when I post so I might merely be overlooking what was obvious, to you I guess.

No, you're right. I completely agree with you, and looking back I should have phrased it a little differently. To clarify I didn't mean to insinuate that she has the right to her opinions without scrutiny, in fact I don't think people have a right to an opinion at all. What I meant is that if you where to ask her to rationalize why she believes that, then that would make more sense. Before she makes an actual claim ("I believe this and that is right, because ...") it would be impossible to provide actual proof/evidence, no? .
, making it a claim seems like an interesting approach. Why she has an opinion who does has nothing to do with evidence so.....
Opinion/boring
Claim/ more entertaining,
Lol

I might be wrong.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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6/14/2016 12:02:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

Yes.
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"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/14/2016 12:05:07 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

You make bare assertions more than anybody I know.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/14/2016 7:34:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 12:05:07 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

You make bare assertions more than anybody I know.
You have the right to your opinion.
famousdebater
Posts: 3,943
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6/14/2016 8:10:27 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If you mean solely then I disagree. The BOP can often be distributed, especially in the event of a positive normative resolution.

Even in the event of a non-shared positive claim, the person making the claim doesn't always hold the burden, especially when affirming the nonexistence of something. If I make the claim that morality is not objective, then my opponent must prove to me that morality is objective with some sort of metaethical system of morality. The maker of this negative claim has no burden other than to refute the opposing arguments.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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6/14/2016 8:21:59 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 12:05:07 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

You make bare assertions more than anybody I know.

^
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/14/2016 8:25:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 8:10:27 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If you mean solely then I disagree. The BOP can often be distributed, especially in the event of a positive normative resolution.

Even in the event of a non-shared positive claim, the person making the claim doesn't always hold the burden, especially when affirming the nonexistence of something. If I make the claim that morality is not objective, then my opponent must prove to me that morality is objective with some sort of metaethical system of morality. The maker of this negative claim has no burden other than to refute the opposing arguments.

Well said, I agree.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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6/14/2016 8:26:13 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

It should be on both sides.
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NathanDuclos
Posts: 51
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6/16/2016 5:47:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/14/2016 8:26:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

It should be on both sides.

it depends, its is coke vs pepsie or i think thus. . . both have different requirments. .
ViceRegent
Posts: 606
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6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/19/2016 8:53:18 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
This debatew is about the burden of proof. Stay on topic.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/19/2016 9:03:58 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 8:53:18 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
This debatew is about the burden of proof. Stay on topic.

I'm very on topic.

I just used the same exact same fallacious logic that you yourself approved, but somehow you seem to discontent when used against the group that you identify as. Why the change of mind? Did it backfire or are theists just exempt from the rule?
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/19/2016 9:08:56 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 9:03:58 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:53:18 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
This debatew is about the burden of proof. Stay on topic.

I'm very on topic.

I just used the same exact same fallacious logic that you yourself approved, but somehow you seem to discontent when used against the group that you identify as. Why the change of mind? Did it backfire or are theists just exempt from the rule?
You have the right to your opinion. Anything you say that is not about the burden of proof is off topic.
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/19/2016 9:19:14 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 9:08:56 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 9:03:58 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:53:18 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
This debatew is about the burden of proof. Stay on topic.

I'm very on topic.

I just used the same exact same fallacious logic that you yourself approved, but somehow you seem to discontent when used against the group that you identify as. Why the change of mind? Did it backfire or are theists just exempt from the rule?
You have the right to your opinion. Anything you say that is not about the burden of proof is off topic.

I rest my case haha! ;)
ILoveSitarMusic
Posts: 225
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6/19/2016 9:21:50 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 9:19:14 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 9:08:56 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 9:03:58 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:53:18 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:48:19 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:28:24 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.
You have the right to your opinion.

Is that your best counter argument?
This debatew is about the burden of proof. Stay on topic.

I'm very on topic.

I just used the same exact same fallacious logic that you yourself approved, but somehow you seem to discontent when used against the group that you identify as. Why the change of mind? Did it backfire or are theists just exempt from the rule?
You have the right to your opinion. Anything you say that is not about the burden of proof is off topic.

I rest my case haha! ;)
You are done here. I will NOT tolerate trolls.
ViceRegent
Posts: 606
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6/20/2016 5:20:10 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.

They would? Prove it?
OlaNordmann
Posts: 87
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6/20/2016 5:37:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 5:20:10 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/19/2016 8:16:36 PM, OlaNordmann wrote:
At 6/19/2016 6:05:47 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
At 6/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, ViceRegent wrote:
At 6/12/2016 6:50:37 PM, ILoveSitarMusic wrote:
Is the burden of proof on the one making the claim? I say yes. If you are going to make a claim, you need to prove it.

If atheists applied this truth, they would cease to exist.
Ha, I know, right?
Yeah and if applied the same principle to theists then they would cease to exist too, no? Don't hold your breath.

They would? Prove it?

Hey ViceRegent. They wouldn't. It was a sarcastic follow-up question. That's why I added the "Don't hold your breath" part. But I guess sarcasm doesn't translate well in written form.