Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

Heresy, society and the butterfly effect

zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:25:47 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

Awesome post! I'd like to delve a little more into your example about the purpose for sex though. I actually had a "revelation" about this earlier today. When I say revelation, I mean a deep and complex thought from out of nowhere while I was engaged in a physically demanding activity. (my mind wanders while mowing lawns lol) Anyway, I got to thinking about the importance of feeling sexually attractive, and what I concurred was that, maybe we wanna feel attractive - to prove our worth, if many people would wanna procreate with us, we must hold value. We have been bombarded by images of overtly attractive people to the point that us regular folks are seen as almost a consolation prize. So some of us go to extreme lengths to be seen as attractive, (worthy for wanting to be bred with) when we could be focusing on relating with another human who is truly compatible (which could ultimately lead to procreation.)

Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,919
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 8:43:45 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.


I don't think non-human animals know that when they have sex they are making babies. Nor do I think it is necessary for a human to know sex leads to babies to want to do sex. That sex leads to babies is something we learn, i.e. it isn't something hard-wired into our brains from birth. Of course having once learned it it is impossible to unlearn and it has enormous effect on our behaviour!

What is innate is a drive to find a mate and to copulate with it. Reproduction is a side-effect of that. It is an intended side-effect from evolutions point-of-view, but a side-effect nonetheless. The real reason people get together in a relationship is not reproducton per se but can come under the broad heading of 'companionship' and (bluntly) to have someone to do the sweaty but fun mechanics of copulation with. But it sees many humans are oddly uncomfortable with the idea of sex as recreation (or 'because its fun') and like the idea of 'perpetuating the population' as a sort of excuse. Hence the social stigma attached to homosexuality, perhaps.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,861
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 9:40:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:25:47 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

Awesome post! I'd like to delve a little more into your example about the purpose for sex though. I actually had a "revelation" about this earlier today. When I say revelation, I mean a deep and complex thought from out of nowhere while I was engaged in a physically demanding activity. (my mind wanders while mowing lawns lol) Anyway, I got to thinking about the importance of feeling sexually attractive, and what I concurred was that, maybe we wanna feel attractive - to prove our worth, if many people would wanna procreate with us, we must hold value. We have been bombarded by images of overtly attractive people to the point that us regular folks are seen as almost a consolation prize. So some of us go to extreme lengths to be seen as attractive, (worthy for wanting to be bred with) when we could be focusing on relating with another human who is truly compatible (which could ultimately lead to procreation.)
you either accept yourself or change what you are capable of changing. but you cannot know what is attractive to someone else because it is subjective. This media garbage usually only reflects a lack of positive self image in people who encapsulate media biases as to what you think they promote as attractive. Everyone is beautiful to someone. The media is irelevant to happy people, they simply are another aspect of life because they definitely do not define anything in life.
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 12:07:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 9:40:30 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:25:47 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

Awesome post! I'd like to delve a little more into your example about the purpose for sex though. I actually had a "revelation" about this earlier today. When I say revelation, I mean a deep and complex thought from out of nowhere while I was engaged in a physically demanding activity. (my mind wanders while mowing lawns lol) Anyway, I got to thinking about the importance of feeling sexually attractive, and what I concurred was that, maybe we wanna feel attractive - to prove our worth, if many people would wanna procreate with us, we must hold value. We have been bombarded by images of overtly attractive people to the point that us regular folks are seen as almost a consolation prize. So some of us go to extreme lengths to be seen as attractive, (worthy for wanting to be bred with) when we could be focusing on relating with another human who is truly compatible (which could ultimately lead to procreation.)
you either accept yourself or change what you are capable of changing. but you cannot know what is attractive to someone else because it is subjective. This media garbage usually only reflects a lack of positive self image in people who encapsulate media biases as to what you think they promote as attractive. Everyone is beautiful to someone. The media is irelevant to happy people, they simply are another aspect of life because they definitely do not define anything in life.
You are correct, but unfortunately our mentality doesn't apply to many people. My current relationship of 5 years, and the effect that imagery has had on my man, is why I said "us" in that post,but I refuse to go thru time consuming external measures to appear more attractive. I am a woman who likes to be cleans and well groomed, but I only wear make-up or wear figure enhancing clothing on rare occasions. My man tells me I'm cute and stuff, but still glances at flashy women regardless. It's not just a "guy" thing - like many guys promote in each other. It is hurtful to me everytime and has affected the "intimacy" level of our relationship, because I feel even worse if we have recently done it and he looks at someone else which he actually did more before I cut him off. If I spruce myself up, he is overly attentive of me just cuz he wants sex. I've lost interest in connecting with someone who values me as a sperm depository, but would jump on someone else if society permitted it and they would give him the time of day, (which they don't)

That's another thing that annoys me. A female finds a guy attractive, even though he isn't the kind of attractive that is promoted by the media, and yet he looks at females that are way "outta his league" and wouldn't give him the time of day. Don't guys care if the female would wanna look back? With many females, we only emulate "I think you're cute" vibes if we think the guy could possibly find us cute as well.
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 2:51:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 8:43:45 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.


I don't think non-human animals know that when they have sex they are making babies. Nor do I think it is necessary for a human to know sex leads to babies to want to do sex. That sex leads to babies is something we learn, i.e. it isn't something hard-wired into our brains from birth. Of course having once learned it it is impossible to unlearn and it has enormous effect on our behaviour!

Agreed.


What is innate is a drive to find a mate and to copulate with it. Reproduction is a side-effect of that. It is an intended side-effect from evolutions point-of-view, but a side-effect nonetheless. The real reason people get together in a relationship is not reproducton per se but can come under the broad heading of 'companionship' and (bluntly) to have someone to do the sweaty but fun mechanics of copulation with. But it sees many humans are oddly uncomfortable with the idea of sex as recreation (or 'because its fun') and like the idea of 'perpetuating the population' as a sort of excuse. Hence the social stigma attached to homosexuality, perhaps.

Wait is this serious? I've never heard anyone actually argue this from an evolutionary point of view.

Isn't it quite odd that the penis is shaped just so that it gets semen into the vagina, where there's a complex process to produce a new human being? I mean... Considering the complexity, it seems that the reproductive-ness of sex has taken more evolution than the simple pleasure/instinct aspect of it.

I think you've got it backwards. We have the fear instinct to stay alive. We have the fuck instinct to reproduce. Otherwise, we'd all die from doing dangerous things, and wouldn't reproduce.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 2:59:13 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:25:47 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

Awesome post! I'd like to delve a little more into your example about the purpose for sex though. I actually had a "revelation" about this earlier today. When I say revelation, I mean a deep and complex thought from out of nowhere while I was engaged in a physically demanding activity. (my mind wanders while mowing lawns lol)

Considering the past couple summers out of college, I've also mowed grass, I know exactly what you mean ;) lots of thinking, driving around, hopping in and out, smoking cigarettes at the gas station, and getting grass all over you.

Anyway, I got to thinking about the importance of feeling sexually attractive, and what I concurred was that, maybe we wanna feel attractive - to prove our worth, if many people would wanna procreate with us, we must hold value. We have been bombarded by images of overtly attractive people to the point that us regular folks are seen as almost a consolation prize. So some of us go to extreme lengths to be seen as attractive, (worthy for wanting to be bred with) when we could be focusing on relating with another human who is truly compatible (which could ultimately lead to procreation.)

Yes, I think this is a good point. There's definitely a satisfaction that people have if alot of people want to procreate with you. Even if you're a good person, and would never cheat on your spouse. Admiration, especially in regards to attractiveness, is definitely a big thing to people.


Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.

I agree. Ideally, the two shouldn't be divorced from one another. Knowing that when you have sex with someone, this is someone you love, and you're both giving yourselves to each other freely, with the possibility that you may have offspring, should definitely add to the pleasure of the act.

I've heard people say that in times past, people wanted offspring because it was a way of "living forever." In some sense, you lived on since your children were still around to continue your bloodline.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 5:08:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 8:43:45 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.


I don't think non-human animals know that when they have sex they are making babies. Nor do I think it is necessary for a human to know sex leads to babies to want to do sex. That sex leads to babies is something we learn, i.e. it isn't something hard-wired into our brains from birth. Of course having once learned it it is impossible to unlearn and it has enormous effect on our behaviour!

Hormones drive our desires. It's the reason that women who don't take birth control (pill, shots, or implants) are easier to arouse when they are ovulating. We get a hormonal release of testosterone, to signal our body that we didn't conceive and to stop building the walls of the uterus to prepare for implantation. The shot of testosterone to our system is what causes PMS and for us to become more aggressive and / or emotional. I have passed my child bearing years, and my drive as well as feeling like I'm on an emotional rollercoaster has decreased.

After males go thru puberty, their sex drive increases, and stays "healthy" until their health fails or stress diminishes their drive.

What is innate is a drive to find a mate and to copulate with it. Reproduction is a side-effect of that.

No, I disagree. Reproduction is what hard wires us to seek sex. Pleasure just reinforces our innate drive because of hormones and pheromones.

It is an intended side-effect from evolutions point-of-view, but a side-effect nonetheless. The real reason people get together in a relationship is not reproducton per se but can come under the broad heading of 'companionship' and (bluntly) to have someone to do the sweaty but fun mechanics of copulation with. But it sees many humans are oddly uncomfortable with the idea of sex as recreation (or 'because its fun') and like the idea of 'perpetuating the population' as a sort of excuse. Hence the social stigma attached to homosexuality, perhaps.

Sex for pleasure is not something I have a problem with, as long as both persons are receiving equal pleasure. As a female, our desires are often not met, and we end up appeasing a male and pretending we are completely satisfied to keep from hurting his ego. Body to body friction, with penetration, rhythmically with both persons moving in a circular motion, can lead to a better orgasm for us than oral. Oral is a poor substitution for a "real" one. Guys watch porn and think the positions where they can view penetration is automatically pleasing to females. It is only pleasing in watching a person we care about derive pleasure from our willingness to let him. To deeply satisfy us, we'd have to admit what we really like and risk making our guy feel less masculine for not knowing. This is how porn harms relationships and causes females to submit to less pleasure than we really desire.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
keithprosser
Posts: 1,919
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:13:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
No, I disagree. Reproduction is what hard wires us to seek sex. Pleasure just reinforces our innate drive because of hormones and pheromones.

It's a question of the level you look at it. The way evolution gets animals to reproduce is to give them the urge to copulate. Evolution does not provide animals with any innate knowledge why they have that urge or what copulation leads to. The reason evolution did it that way is that such a system works even for animals that don't have highly developed brains that can deal with abstract knowledge and future consequences - they just need simple brains that are programmable with little more than a desire for copulation - human males, for instance.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:50:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:13:27 PM, keithprosser wrote:
No, I disagree. Reproduction is what hard wires us to seek sex. Pleasure just reinforces our innate drive because of hormones and pheromones.

It's a question of the level you look at it. The way evolution gets animals to reproduce is to give them the urge to copulate. Evolution does not provide animals with any innate knowledge why they have that urge or what copulation leads to. The reason evolution did it that way is that such a system works even for animals that don't have highly developed brains that can deal with abstract knowledge and future consequences - they just need simple brains that are programmable with little more than a desire for copulation - human males, for instance.
I agree, I wasn't supporting the idea that sex should only be for reproduction, but our urge for it driven mostly by hormones, if followed purely naturally (without birth control) would lead to procreation for those who are fertile.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:53:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
true to some degree
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 6:55:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:53:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
true to some degree

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 7:13:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 6:55:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:53:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
true to some degree

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...
http://www.defendingyoumn.com...
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 7:15:56 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 7:13:31 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:55:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:53:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
true to some degree

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...
http://www.defendingyoumn.com...

https://i.ytimg.com...
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/16/2016 7:22:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 7:15:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 7:13:31 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:55:57 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:53:37 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:47:56 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 6:45:47 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:22:25 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com...
Sure it does, you squashed my theory that you work for Juggle :)

http://i.imgur.com...
true to some degree

http://i1.kym-cdn.com...
http://www.defendingyoumn.com...

https://i.ytimg.com...
lol
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2016 12:21:10 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

I think that orthodoxy brings stability, but that it isn't necessarily reflective of reality. This means that it's constantly subjected to erosive cultural and historical forces, and will eventually collapse and need to be reconstructed. Attempts to suppress heresy fuel the fire, the system burns, and then it's rebuilt. Societies all follow this cyclical model, more or less.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2016 3:49:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 12:21:10 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

I think that orthodoxy brings stability, but that it isn't necessarily reflective of reality. This means that it's constantly subjected to erosive cultural and historical forces, and will eventually collapse and need to be reconstructed. Attempts to suppress heresy fuel the fire, the system burns, and then it's rebuilt. Societies all follow this cyclical model, more or less.

Very interesting. So you don't think a society can ever persist in a certain set of beliefs?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,073
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2016 3:51:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:08:44 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 8:43:45 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.


I don't think non-human animals know that when they have sex they are making babies. Nor do I think it is necessary for a human to know sex leads to babies to want to do sex. That sex leads to babies is something we learn, i.e. it isn't something hard-wired into our brains from birth. Of course having once learned it it is impossible to unlearn and it has enormous effect on our behaviour!

Hormones drive our desires. It's the reason that women who don't take birth control (pill, shots, or implants) are easier to arouse when they are ovulating.

Ooooooh yeaaaaah.

We get a hormonal release of testosterone, to signal our body that we didn't conceive and to stop building the walls of the uterus to prepare for implantation. The shot of testosterone to our system is what causes PMS and for us to become more aggressive and / or emotional. I have passed my child bearing years, and my drive as well as feeling like I'm on an emotional rollercoaster has decreased.

After males go thru puberty, their sex drive increases, and stays "healthy" until their health fails or stress diminishes their drive.

What is innate is a drive to find a mate and to copulate with it. Reproduction is a side-effect of that.

No, I disagree. Reproduction is what hard wires us to seek sex. Pleasure just reinforces our innate drive because of hormones and pheromones.

It is an intended side-effect from evolutions point-of-view, but a side-effect nonetheless. The real reason people get together in a relationship is not reproducton per se but can come under the broad heading of 'companionship' and (bluntly) to have someone to do the sweaty but fun mechanics of copulation with. But it sees many humans are oddly uncomfortable with the idea of sex as recreation (or 'because its fun') and like the idea of 'perpetuating the population' as a sort of excuse. Hence the social stigma attached to homosexuality, perhaps.

Sex for pleasure is not something I have a problem with, as long as both persons are receiving equal pleasure. As a female, our desires are often not met, and we end up appeasing a male and pretending we are completely satisfied to keep from hurting his ego. Body to body friction, with penetration, rhythmically with both persons moving in a circular motion, can lead to a better orgasm for us than oral. Oral is a poor substitution for a "real" one. Guys watch porn and think the positions where they can view penetration is automatically pleasing to females. It is only pleasing in watching a person we care about derive pleasure from our willingness to let him. To deeply satisfy us, we'd have to admit what we really like and risk making our guy feel less masculine for not knowing. This is how porn harms relationships and causes females to submit to less pleasure than we really desire.

So size does matter.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2016 4:02:46 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 3:49:11 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 7/17/2016 12:21:10 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Society does not understand the power of heresy. Usually when someone hears the word heresy, they think of the inquisition and of certain Christians killing other Christians over some age old word called "heresy."

However, this is because people don't understand the incredibly huge impact heresy has upon society.

Heresy can be defined as taking a system of propositions, and not removing, but slightly altering one of the core propositions. This can have drastic effects in the long run.

Thomas Aquinas echoes Aristotle, saying "A small mistake in the beginning is a big one in the end."

This is essentially the basis of chaos theory, and is illustrated in the butterfly effect. Except the system is society. It's the world. It's us.

Look at what were to happen if you were to change the idea that sex's sole purpose is procreation, to the idea that sex's sole purpose is pleasure. Or if you were to change the definition of a triangle.

In the end, the world is a very complex and sensitive system, and societies are built upon a core set of beliefs. Heresy, that is, changing one of these core beliefs, is very powerful, and can affect an immense number of people.

Thoughts?

I think that orthodoxy brings stability, but that it isn't necessarily reflective of reality. This means that it's constantly subjected to erosive cultural and historical forces, and will eventually collapse and need to be reconstructed. Attempts to suppress heresy fuel the fire, the system burns, and then it's rebuilt. Societies all follow this cyclical model, more or less.

Very interesting. So you don't think a society can ever persist in a certain set of beliefs?

No, not indefinitely. I mostly hold to the model observed by Durant:

'Hence a certain tension between religion and society marks the higher stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness. Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a 'conflict between science and religion.' Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control, and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and -- after some hesitation -- the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile among the oppressed another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization.'
- The Story of Civilization -
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/17/2016 3:28:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/17/2016 3:51:52 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 7/16/2016 5:08:44 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 7/16/2016 8:43:45 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Sex should be pleasurable because another human life could result. We wouldn't wanna "do it" if it didn't feel good. On the other hand only seeking sexual stimulation and pleasure, can have a numbing effect to the pleasure that the interaction between two people who love each other deeply is capable of producing.


I don't think non-human animals know that when they have sex they are making babies. Nor do I think it is necessary for a human to know sex leads to babies to want to do sex. That sex leads to babies is something we learn, i.e. it isn't something hard-wired into our brains from birth. Of course having once learned it it is impossible to unlearn and it has enormous effect on our behaviour!

Hormones drive our desires. It's the reason that women who don't take birth control (pill, shots, or implants) are easier to arouse when they are ovulating.

Ooooooh yeaaaaah.

We get a hormonal release of testosterone, to signal our body that we didn't conceive and to stop building the walls of the uterus to prepare for implantation. The shot of testosterone to our system is what causes PMS and for us to become more aggressive and / or emotional. I have passed my child bearing years, and my drive as well as feeling like I'm on an emotional rollercoaster has decreased.

After males go thru puberty, their sex drive increases, and stays "healthy" until their health fails or stress diminishes their drive.

What is innate is a drive to find a mate and to copulate with it. Reproduction is a side-effect of that.

No, I disagree. Reproduction is what hard wires us to seek sex. Pleasure just reinforces our innate drive because of hormones and pheromones.

It is an intended side-effect from evolutions point-of-view, but a side-effect nonetheless. The real reason people get together in a relationship is not reproducton per se but can come under the broad heading of 'companionship' and (bluntly) to have someone to do the sweaty but fun mechanics of copulation with. But it sees many humans are oddly uncomfortable with the idea of sex as recreation (or 'because its fun') and like the idea of 'perpetuating the population' as a sort of excuse. Hence the social stigma attached to homosexuality, perhaps.

Sex for pleasure is not something I have a problem with, as long as both persons are receiving equal pleasure. As a female, our desires are often not met, and we end up appeasing a male and pretending we are completely satisfied to keep from hurting his ego. Body to body friction, with penetration, rhythmically with both persons moving in a circular motion, can lead to a better orgasm for us than oral. Oral is a poor substitution for a "real" one. Guys watch porn and think the positions where they can view penetration is automatically pleasing to females. It is only pleasing in watching a person we care about derive pleasure from our willingness to let him. To deeply satisfy us, we'd have to admit what we really like and risk making our guy feel less masculine for not knowing. This is how porn harms relationships and causes females to submit to less pleasure than we really desire.

So size does matter.
no comment - lol