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The End of Christmas

Freeman
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12/24/2010 7:00:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For far too long the citizens of Earth have been living under the delusion that Santa Claus exists and that the Christmas season brings comfort and cheer to the world. Legends, pagan traditions and word of mouth have put this jolly old fat man - this "father Christmas" - on a historical pedestal that is not shared by other mythical figures. Indeed, myths and Christmas folklore have stripped the Earth of everything noble, upright and good. Santa Claus is, therefore, not a benign delusion; it's a harmful one. This scarlet pimpernel of the night, even if he did exist, certainly does not deserve our praise, and he most certainly does not deserve our cookies. Now more than ever, it is time that he is evicted from his imaginary workstation at the North Pole.

We live in an age where most people believe that mere words - "Santa Claus," "holiday cheer," "Christmas" - can mean the difference between having a good time with others and being alone. Christmas stories and all that they entail are presumed, even without argument, to be perfectly true in their every detail. How can any honest person presume to know so much about the historical basis of our holiday traditions. Because it says so in the Christmas stories. How do we know that our Christmas stories about Santa Claus are free from error? Because the stories themselves say so. Epistemological black holes of this sort are fast draining the light from the winter solstice.

In fact, the foundation of our Christmas stories about Saint Nick can be easily shown to be without merit:

The Argument From the Absence of Presents

P1: If Santa Claus exists, then he would give all good children presents for Christmas.
P2: It is not the case that all good children do get presents for Christmas.
C: Therefore, Santa Claus does not exist.

The first premise is uncontroversial. If Santa Claus actually existed, he would give all good children what they really wanted for Christmas. Moreover, the second premise is equally well supported. Many good children spend Christmas day without any presents whatsoever. What's more, many bad children receive excellent gifts and not the lumps of coal they are promised in the stories about Christmas. It is therefore necessarily true that Santa Claus is nothing more than an illusion; and most assuredly it is not a harmless one. Nothing harms this world more than the false and decadent consolations of Christmas.

It is with these final words that I condemn Christmas. I bring against the Christmas season the most awful of accusations that any accuser has ever had in his mouth. Christmas, from its inception to the present day, has never been aimed to bless humanity with good cheer and comfort. The truth is that Christmas was a vampire of the whole world, which is to say, the imperium Romanum. Like a vampire it aimed to suck dry people of their dignity and self-worth when it first came about. This subterranean cult of wish thinking seeks nothing more than the destruction of holiday cheer with it's illusory stories of helper elves, flying reindeer and magic sleds. It's protectors are, of course, no less culpable in this entire diabolical scheme. While cloaked under the cover of night, mist and duplicity, these stealthy worms - these propagators of ancient legend - have attacked the very basis for happiness around this time of year. In doing so, they assured that the true basis for human happiness would be kept out of arms reach.

Let any man speak to me about the humanitarian blessings of Christmas and how it relieves distress. Christmas creates distress with it's obscene subversion of the truth and in its false promises of gifts from Santa so that it can make itself immortal. All of this is to me the humanitarian blessings of Christmas. Whether Christmas makes some people happy is beside the point. Even if this were true, it would not take away from the fact that Christmas was (and always will be) the ultimate of all corruptions.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
rogue
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12/24/2010 8:45:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you don't tell your children about Santa then you rob them of a wonderful experience. I used to say that when I was younger and then I realized that believing in Santa made me really happy and excited as a child. Also, I think you are being very cynical. I know that Christmas is way too commercialized. But, for me and my family at least, it is a very happy time for us. I know it is for others too. I wouldn't want that taken from me.
vardas0antras
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12/24/2010 9:36:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Too much to read for one joke but I appreciate the effort
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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12/24/2010 9:45:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
hum·bug   /ˈhʌmˌbʌg/ Show Spelled
[huhm-buhg] Show IPA
noun, verb, -bugged, -bug·ging, interjection
–noun
1.
something intended to delude or deceive.
2.
the quality of falseness or deception.
3.
a person who is not what he or she claims or pretends to be; impostor.
badger
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12/24/2010 9:57:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i'm definitely going to lie to my kids about santa. what an ingenious way to pawn off being a tight cunt... and kids love it! hey, it's a bit devious, sure, but my parents did it to me...? and kids love it! *insert some quote about how some lies can be good here*
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Cody_Franklin
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12/24/2010 10:14:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 8:45:47 PM, rogue wrote:
If you don't tell your children about Santa then you rob them of a wonderful experience.

Parental deception that is slightly traumatizing when brought into the light, especially when it happens via other children?

I used to say that when I was younger and then I realized that believing in Santa made me really happy and excited as a child.

Like cocaine, belief in Santa can provide great high sustainable through continued exposure. Here's the problem, though: the longer the total period of exposure, the worse the consequences when the substance--in this case, the lie--is ripped away.

Also, I think you are being very cynical.

Because I don't want to lie to my children? I mean, come on. Should I tell my kids to believe in God because Christianity will make them feel better? I mean, that happiness is more than seasonal. It lasts all year round, and can, in fact, last a lifetime, which means that you never have to pain them by mentioning that their cosmic daddy isn't real! :)

I know that Christmas is way too commercialized. But, for me and my family at least, it is a very happy time for us. I know it is for others too. I wouldn't want that taken from me.

First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really. Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues. This is especially true when considering that American children, who are arguably the most exposed to the Santa myth, are already past the point of overindulgent.
wamba
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12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Cody your kids will end up like my roommate whose parents who told him santa wasn't real.

The kid has major social problems and is pretty much a dick.

Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long. Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.
badger
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12/24/2010 10:28:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Cody your kids will end up like my roommate whose parents who told him santa wasn't real.

The kid has major social problems and is pretty much a dick.

Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long. Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

i can't really remember any of those years.
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wamba
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12/24/2010 10:29:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really.

Come on man do you hate your entire family or something? I freaking love the festive season. Baking cooking, seeing my relatives, drinking eggnog, singing christmas songs, decorating the tree, getting presents and surprises.

If you don't like the Christmas season then you're doing it wrong

Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues.

Yes it does. I can't tell you how much excitement and fantasy you instill in a person when you allow them to believe in those things. Having my parents lie to me didn't turn me into a person who distrusted my parents or make me resentful. It made me more of a dreamer which has been so good for me. I've done and experienced a lot of things because I've made plans and dreamed about things in the future.

I've also come up with two inventions (not released but maybe) because of indulging in fantasy.

Furthermore:

"Others, however, see no harm in the belief in Santa Claus. Psychologist Tamar Murachver said that because it is a cultural, not parental, lie, it does not undermine parental trust.[123] The New Zealand Skeptics also see no harm in parents telling their children that Santa is real. Spokesperson Vicki Hyde said, "It would be a hard-hearted parent indeed who frowned upon the innocent joys of our children's cultural heritage. We save our bah humbugs for the things that exploit the vulnerable."[123] It can also be advocated that, although Santa Claus isn't real, the Christmas spirit is real.[124]

Dr. John Condry of Cornell University interviewed more than 500 children for a study of the issue and found that not a single child was angry at his or her parents for telling them Santa Claus was real. According to Dr. Condry, "The most common response to finding out the truth was that they felt older and more mature. They now knew something that the younger kids did not".[125]"
badger
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12/24/2010 10:29:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:28:23 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Cody your kids will end up like my roommate whose parents who told him santa wasn't real.

The kid has major social problems and is pretty much a dick.

Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long. Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

i can't really remember any of those years.

not that that means you can't.
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wamba
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12/24/2010 10:29:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:28:23 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Cody your kids will end up like my roommate whose parents who told him santa wasn't real.

The kid has major social problems and is pretty much a dick.

Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long. Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

i can't really remember any of those years.

badger I'd be surprised if you remembered yesterday.

P just goofin
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/24/2010 10:31:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Cody your kids will end up like my roommate whose parents who told him santa wasn't real.

The kid has major social problems and is pretty much a dick.

Correlation and causation are certainly not the same thing. If I beat my kids and also make them eat vegetables, you certainly wouldn't label green beans and carrots as instruments of child abuse or as generators of psychosocial issues. Similarly, I really don't think that you can realistically link not lying to your children about Santa with the development of psychological issues. If the kid is that screwed up, then you should either look at his genetic and psychological predispositions, or scrutinize his upbringing a little bit harder.

Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long.

I don't really value a child's innocence. Some people might find it cute, sure, but I have no reason to prefer it to all possible alternatives. Plus, if the test of a parent's love is how well and how long a parent can keep up a deceit with its own child, then social norms are not only totally out of whack, but are also setting awful precedents for parents.

Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

Allowing fantasy is one thing. That's what books, television, and video games or for. The Santa myth tries to blur the line between fantasy and reality. I think the same of the Santa Myth as I do of the God Myth.
Cody_Franklin
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12/24/2010 10:41:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:29:16 PM, wamba wrote:
First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really.

Come on man do you hate your entire family or something? I freaking love the festive season. Baking cooking, seeing my relatives, drinking eggnog, singing christmas songs, decorating the tree, getting presents and surprises.

If you don't like the Christmas season then you're doing it wrong

Actually, for the most part, I dislike my family quite a lot. My dad is a pathetic sadsack during this season and my mom is an annoying conservative who won't shut up about Jesus and the horrors of Mexicans "taking over the apartment complexes".

I also really dislike Christmas music and carolers. And putting up/decorating the tree is a pain in the a**.


Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues.

Yes it does. I can't tell you how much excitement and fantasy you instill in a person when you allow them to believe in those things.

The reality of our universe--outside of the little boundaries of supernatural fantasy--is much more wondrous.

Having my parents lie to me didn't turn me into a person who distrusted my parents or make me resentful. It made me more of a dreamer which has been so good for me. I've done and experienced a lot of things because I've made plans and dreamed about things in the future.

You don't need Santa to hope and dream about the future.

I've also come up with two inventions (not released but maybe) because of indulging in fantasy.

Furthermore:

"Others, however, see no harm in the belief in Santa Claus. Psychologist Tamar Murachver said that because it is a cultural, not parental, lie, it does not undermine parental trust.[123] The New Zealand Skeptics also see no harm in parents telling their children that Santa is real.

Appealing to tradition doesn't help, especially when it proves, at most, that people can distrust their culture, rather than their parents. Not much better.

Spokesperson Vicki Hyde said, "It would be a hard-hearted parent indeed who frowned upon the innocent joys of our children's cultural heritage. We save our bah humbugs for the things that exploit the vulnerable."[123] It can also be advocated that, although Santa Claus isn't real, the Christmas spirit is real.[124]

Oh, please. Emotionally-charged garbage.

Dr. John Condry of Cornell University interviewed more than 500 children for a study of the issue and found that not a single child was angry at his or her parents for telling them Santa Claus was real. According to Dr. Condry, "The most common response to finding out the truth was that they felt older and more mature. They now knew something that the younger kids did not".[125]"

I'd prefer to give my kids Tinker Toys and Legos. I can tell them that Santa isn't real prior to all that nonsense.
wamba
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12/24/2010 10:51:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:41:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Actually, for the most part, I dislike my family quite a lot. My dad is a pathetic sadsack during this season and my mom is an annoying conservative who won't shut up about Jesus and the horrors of Mexicans "taking over the apartment complexes".

The problem isn't the holiday bro but the family. Every family says stupid crap and does stupid crap. However that doesn't mean you should dislike them. I dunno your specific situation but I think its pretty fair to say that you don't hate Christmas, you just hate spending time with your family in general.

Yes it does. I can't tell you how much excitement and fantasy you instill in a person when you allow them to believe in those things.

The reality of our universe--outside of the little boundaries of supernatural fantasy--is much more wondrous.

Nonsense. Reality pales in comparison to the fantasy invoked by the human mind.


Having my parents lie to me didn't turn me into a person who distrusted my parents or make me resentful. It made me more of a dreamer which has been so good for me. I've done and experienced a lot of things because I've made plans and dreamed about things in the future.

You don't need Santa to hope and dream about the future.

You don't need him, correct, but this early belief fueled my enjoyment in fantasy and significantly changed my outlook on things.

Dr. John Condry of Cornell University interviewed more than 500 children for a study of the issue and found that not a single child was angry at his or her parents for telling them Santa Claus was real. According to Dr. Condry, "The most common response to finding out the truth was that they felt older and more mature. They now knew something that the younger kids did not".[125]"

I'd prefer to give my kids Tinker Toys and Legos. I can tell them that Santa isn't real prior to all that nonsense.

I guarantee you, your mind will be changed significantly when you see how happy the fantasy can make your children.

I mean in all honesty when do you think a child is more excited and happy? Clearly believing in a magical fat guy delivering presents. I can clearly remember how happy I was when I laid in bed at night and tried to listen for santa downstairs. Just everything. Instilling logic and reason at the age of 6 is completely useless. Your kid isn't going to gain anything from being told the truth except that he'll be less happy at Christmas, more socially awkward, and possibly everyone in the neighborhood will hate your guts.
Cody_Franklin
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12/24/2010 10:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:51:54 PM, wamba wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:41:35 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Actually, for the most part, I dislike my family quite a lot. My dad is a pathetic sadsack during this season and my mom is an annoying conservative who won't shut up about Jesus and the horrors of Mexicans "taking over the apartment complexes".


The problem isn't the holiday bro but the family. Every family says stupid crap and does stupid crap. However that doesn't mean you should dislike them. I dunno your specific situation but I think its pretty fair to say that you don't hate Christmas, you just hate spending time with your family in general.

Family isn't what makes Christmas awful. It's a contributing factor, though.


Yes it does. I can't tell you how much excitement and fantasy you instill in a person when you allow them to believe in those things.

The reality of our universe--outside of the little boundaries of supernatural fantasy--is much more wondrous.

Nonsense. Reality pales in comparison to the fantasy invoked by the human mind.

That isn't necessarily true. I think it requires a specific outlook, though--to really feel in awe about the universe, that is.


Having my parents lie to me didn't turn me into a person who distrusted my parents or make me resentful. It made me more of a dreamer which has been so good for me. I've done and experienced a lot of things because I've made plans and dreamed about things in the future.

You don't need Santa to hope and dream about the future.

You don't need him, correct, but this early belief fueled my enjoyment in fantasy and significantly changed my outlook on things.

There are substitutes for Santa which don't require lying.

Dr. John Condry of Cornell University interviewed more than 500 children for a study of the issue and found that not a single child was angry at his or her parents for telling them Santa Claus was real. According to Dr. Condry, "The most common response to finding out the truth was that they felt older and more mature. They now knew something that the younger kids did not".[125]"

I'd prefer to give my kids Tinker Toys and Legos. I can tell them that Santa isn't real prior to all that nonsense.

I guarantee you, your mind will be changed significantly when you see how happy the fantasy can make your children.

I prefer to make my kids happy by not lying to their faces.

I mean in all honesty when do you think a child is more excited and happy? Clearly believing in a magical fat guy delivering presents. I can clearly remember how happy I was when I laid in bed at night and tried to listen for santa downstairs. Just everything. Instilling logic and reason at the age of 6 is completely useless. Your kid isn't going to gain anything from being told the truth except that he'll be less happy at Christmas, more socially awkward, and possibly everyone in the neighborhood will hate your guts.

I don't lie to protect people's feelings.
rogue
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12/24/2010 11:16:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:14:27 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 8:45:47 PM, rogue wrote:
If you don't tell your children about Santa then you rob them of a wonderful experience.

Parental deception that is slightly traumatizing when brought into the light, especially when it happens via other children?
Ok my parents lied to me and I haven't found it traumatizing because I think they had a good reason for doing so. It's not like they are telling me my dad is my birth dad when he actually isn't. This is a much lighter situation.

I used to say that when I was younger and then I realized that believing in Santa made me really happy and excited as a child.

Like cocaine, belief in Santa can provide great high sustainable through continued exposure. Here's the problem, though: the longer the total period of exposure, the worse the consequences when the substance--in this case, the lie--is ripped away.
Ok I can't believe you are equating believing in Santa with cocaine. I di not have withdrawl when I stopped believing in Santa.

Also, I think you are being very cynical.

Because I don't want to lie to my children? I mean, come on. Should I tell my kids to believe in God because Christianity will make them feel better? I mean, that happiness is more than seasonal. It lasts all year round, and can, in fact, last a lifetime, which means that you never have to pain them by mentioning that their cosmic daddy isn't real! :)
Ok here's the difference. Christianity believes it is real. Priests believe what they are saying when they tell you to believe in God. Parents know they are lying and admit that they were and say sorry.

I know that Christmas is way too commercialized. But, for me and my family at least, it is a very happy time for us. I know it is for others too. I wouldn't want that taken from me.

First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really. Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues. This is especially true when considering that American children, who are arguably the most exposed to the Santa myth, are already past the point of overindulgent.

I don't care what you feel personally. The fact is that x-mas brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people. Not all American children are overindulgent. If that is so it is due to bad parenting not x-mas. You are right, you don't need to believe in santa to love x-mas, but as a kid, all the magic of x-mas comes from santa until you transition into seeing what x-mas is really about.

Holy crap. I actually agree with wamba. Listen to him this one time. He has good points.
annhasle
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12/24/2010 11:19:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not going to lie to my children about Santa. They'll grow up knowing that I bought them the presents. They can still enjoy their lives without the fear of a jolly fat man in a red suit watching them while they're sleeping.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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12/24/2010 11:23:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:21:57 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:21:29 PM, badger wrote:
seriously though, kids love santa...

i loved santa

I never believed in him -- my family tried convincing me but I blackmailed my cousin into telling me the truth when I was 7 (I've always been a bitch). Before that, I didn't pay attention to the fairytale.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
rogue
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12/24/2010 11:24:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 10:31:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long.

I don't really value a child's innocence. Some people might find it cute, sure, but I have no reason to prefer it to all possible alternatives. Plus, if the test of a parent's love is how well and how long a parent can keep up a deceit with its own child, then social norms are not only totally out of whack, but are also setting awful precedents for parents.

Did you not have child's innocence? They were the best years of my life. I was careless and free. I didn't have to worry.

Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

Allowing fantasy is one thing. That's what books, television, and video games or for. The Santa myth tries to blur the line between fantasy and reality. I think the same of the Santa Myth as I do of the God Myth.
You can have fantasy without those things too. And santa is a fantasy that you are allowed to really believe in for a time. It is wonderful.

As for imagination and reality, I believe everything is subjective. There are so many things in this world that are wondrous. But in fantasy you can take only the good things from reality and add other good things. This makes things much less weighed down by the awful things that occur in reality. Yes reality can be better too because you know it is material. You have to have a balance.
badger
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12/24/2010 11:25:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:23:54 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:21:57 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:21:29 PM, badger wrote:
seriously though, kids love santa...

i loved santa

I never believed in him -- my family tried convincing me but I blackmailed my cousin into telling me the truth when I was 7 (I've always been a bitch). Before that, I didn't pay attention to the fairytale.

kinda hard not to pay attention to presents.
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Cody_Franklin
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12/24/2010 11:27:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:16:00 PM, rogue wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:14:27 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 8:45:47 PM, rogue wrote:
If you don't tell your children about Santa then you rob them of a wonderful experience.

Parental deception that is slightly traumatizing when brought into the light, especially when it happens via other children?
Ok my parents lied to me and I haven't found it traumatizing because I think they had a good reason for doing so. It's not like they are telling me my dad is my birth dad when he actually isn't. This is a much lighter situation.

I'm not a deontologist, so I don't think that stupid actions are justified because of adherence to a benevolently-intentioned principle.

I used to say that when I was younger and then I realized that believing in Santa made me really happy and excited as a child.

Like cocaine, belief in Santa can provide great high sustainable through continued exposure. Here's the problem, though: the longer the total period of exposure, the worse the consequences when the substance--in this case, the lie--is ripped away.
Ok I can't believe you are equating believing in Santa with cocaine. I di not have withdrawl when I stopped believing in Santa.

If you aren't a fan of that analogy, I made a more fitting reference to the God Myth.

Also, I think you are being very cynical.

Because I don't want to lie to my children? I mean, come on. Should I tell my kids to believe in God because Christianity will make them feel better? I mean, that happiness is more than seasonal. It lasts all year round, and can, in fact, last a lifetime, which means that you never have to pain them by mentioning that their cosmic daddy isn't real! :)
Ok here's the difference. Christianity believes it is real. Priests believe what they are saying when they tell you to believe in God. Parents know they are lying and admit that they were and say sorry.

Kids believe that Santa is real in the exact same way that is real. The only difference is that parents are aware of their deception, whereas priests, I hope, are not.

I know that Christmas is way too commercialized. But, for me and my family at least, it is a very happy time for us. I know it is for others too. I wouldn't want that taken from me.

First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really. Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues. This is especially true when considering that American children, who are arguably the most exposed to the Santa myth, are already past the point of overindulgent.

I don't care what you feel personally.

If you didn't want to discuss my opinion on things, you shouldn't have engaged me.

The fact is that x-mas brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people.

Santa isn't required for people to experience Christmas joy.

Not all American children are overindulgent. If that is so it is due to bad parenting not x-mas.

I never claimed that all American children are overindulgent, nor did claim that Christmas causes overindulgence; however, many of the children whose families are able to afford to perpetuate the Santa Myth are comparatively overindulged to poorer kids whose families can't even afford to keep the kid well-fed (not to mention that, in a more absolute sense, there is a pretty large margin of American children who are prima facie overindulged by parents. Additionally, though Christmas doesn't cause overindulgence, the perpetuation of the Santa Myth does nothing to help the issue.

You are right, you don't need to believe in santa to love x-mas, but as a kid, all the magic of x-mas comes from santa until you transition into seeing what x-mas is really about.

There are substitutes for Santa, and I have no reason to believe that you can't give your child just as "magical" a holiday experience without invoking St. Nick.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/24/2010 11:28:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:25:40 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:23:54 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:21:57 PM, badger wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:21:29 PM, badger wrote:
seriously though, kids love santa...

i loved santa

I never believed in him -- my family tried convincing me but I blackmailed my cousin into telling me the truth when I was 7 (I've always been a bitch). Before that, I didn't pay attention to the fairytale.

kinda hard not to pay attention to presents.

I paid attention to the presents. Not Santa -- my family grew concerned when I was 7 since I wasn't acting like the rest of the (brainwashed) kids. Then I told them that I didn't believe... and it's been downhill since. :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/24/2010 11:32:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:24:18 PM, rogue wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:31:32 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:17:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Lie to your kids. A child's innocence is a beautiful thing that unfortunately doesn't last long.

I don't really value a child's innocence. Some people might find it cute, sure, but I have no reason to prefer it to all possible alternatives. Plus, if the test of a parent's love is how well and how long a parent can keep up a deceit with its own child, then social norms are not only totally out of whack, but are also setting awful precedents for parents.

Did you not have child's innocence? They were the best years of my life. I was careless and free. I didn't have to worry.

For a few years in early, early childhood. I "grew up" a lot faster than my peers, though. I was also rather pissed off after I found out that not only Santa, but also the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny, were complete fabrications that my parents deluded me into believing.

Don't be a dick and tell him it isn't real. Some of the best years of my life were when i believed in santa, the tooth fairy, etc. Allowing fantasy is not a bad thing.

Allowing fantasy is one thing. That's what books, television, and video games or for. The Santa myth tries to blur the line between fantasy and reality. I think the same of the Santa Myth as I do of the God Myth.
You can have fantasy without those things too. And santa is a fantasy that you are allowed to really believe in for a time. It is wonderful.

I'm not saying that fantasy can't exist without books and television. Your argument there is irrelevant. The point is that I don't value that fantasy, and I'm not going to pass it along to my kids just because it's an emotionally sensitive cultural norm.

As for imagination and reality, I believe everything is subjective. There are so many things in this world that are wondrous. But in fantasy you can take only the good things from reality and add other good things. This makes things much less weighed down by the awful things that occur in reality. Yes reality can be better too because you know it is material. You have to have a balance.

I mean that reality is far more fantastic--larger in the scope of its wonder--than any human-contrived fantasies could hope to be. At least, that's how I think of it, especially as an atheist who only goes by the world that he--as someone who may be a brain in a vat--has in front of him.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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12/24/2010 11:34:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:27:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 11:16:00 PM, rogue wrote:
At 12/24/2010 10:14:27 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/24/2010 8:45:47 PM, rogue wrote:
If you don't tell your children about Santa then you rob them of a wonderful experience.

Parental deception that is slightly traumatizing when brought into the light, especially when it happens via other children?
Ok my parents lied to me and I haven't found it traumatizing because I think they had a good reason for doing so. It's not like they are telling me my dad is my birth dad when he actually isn't. This is a much lighter situation.

I'm not a deontologist, so I don't think that stupid actions are justified because of adherence to a benevolently-intentioned principle.

I used to say that when I was younger and then I realized that believing in Santa made me really happy and excited as a child.

Like cocaine, belief in Santa can provide great high sustainable through continued exposure. Here's the problem, though: the longer the total period of exposure, the worse the consequences when the substance--in this case, the lie--is ripped away.
Ok I can't believe you are equating believing in Santa with cocaine. I di not have withdrawl when I stopped believing in Santa.

If you aren't a fan of that analogy, I made a more fitting reference to the God Myth.

Also, I think you are being very cynical.

Because I don't want to lie to my children? I mean, come on. Should I tell my kids to believe in God because Christianity will make them feel better? I mean, that happiness is more than seasonal. It lasts all year round, and can, in fact, last a lifetime, which means that you never have to pain them by mentioning that their cosmic daddy isn't real! :)
Ok here's the difference. Christianity believes it is real. Priests believe what they are saying when they tell you to believe in God. Parents know they are lying and admit that they were and say sorry.

Kids believe that Santa is real in the exact same way that is real. The only difference is that parents are aware of their deception, whereas priests, I hope, are not.
I disagree. Santa doesn't have all the other baggage god does. Believing in god and religion has a much bigger impact on your life than believing in Santa for your first years.

I know that Christmas is way too commercialized. But, for me and my family at least, it is a very happy time for us. I know it is for others too. I wouldn't want that taken from me.

First of all, I just dislike the Christmas season. I'm not a big fan of any holiday, really. Second of all, Christmas cheer doesn't require you to delude your children into believing that a jolly man in a red suit from the North Pole is going to plop down the chimney and deliver presents as a reward for conforming to traditional virtues. This is especially true when considering that American children, who are arguably the most exposed to the Santa myth, are already past the point of overindulgent.

I don't care what you feel personally.

If you didn't want to discuss my opinion on things, you shouldn't have engaged me.
I am just saying how you feel about the holidays isn't important. Your kids will grow up differently and so you must consider what they are missing out on by not lying to them about santa.

The fact is that x-mas brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people.

Santa isn't required for people to experience Christmas joy.
Yes, but for children it definitely increases it.

Not all American children are overindulgent. If that is so it is due to bad parenting not x-mas.

I never claimed that all American children are overindulgent, nor did claim that Christmas causes overindulgence; however, many of the children whose families are able to afford to perpetuate the Santa Myth are comparatively overindulged to poorer kids whose families can't even afford to keep the kid well-fed (not to mention that, in a more absolute sense, there is a pretty large margin of American children who are prima facie overindulged by parents. Additionally, though Christmas doesn't cause overindulgence, the perpetuation of the Santa Myth does nothing to help the issue.
Nor does it harm it.

You are right, you don't need to believe in santa to love x-mas, but as a kid, all the magic of x-mas comes from santa until you transition into seeing what x-mas is really about.

There are substitutes for Santa, and I have no reason to believe that you can't give your child just as "magical" a holiday experience without invoking St. Nick.
Give me such a substitute?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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12/24/2010 11:35:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/24/2010 11:27:43 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
whereas priests, I hope, are not.

A lot of interesting research on that one. :P