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Faith without knowledge

dee-u
Posts: 1
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7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.
n7
Posts: 1,360
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7/21/2016 6:58:18 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

If you mean "Can we" in the sense that it justifies God's (or whatever's) existence, then by definition no. Justification assumes there is some reason behind your belief. But if it's based on faith (in the sense you're talking about) then there wouldn't be a reason for accepting it.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,082
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7/21/2016 11:03:28 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Such questions can degenerate into pedantry over defintions rather than being about actual facts.

I would say someone who had faith god existed woul find it hard to simultaneously know or believe god did not exist. He may even be aware that his faith is not rationally justified but still hold it.

I think that given the usual or most popular definition of knowlege as 'justified true belief' then a person with an item of faith does not 'know' it, but one could adopt a defintion of knowledge that includes items of faith as knowledge - it is a matter of the agreed usage of words, not of fact.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?
HarveyMeale
Posts: 15
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7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 7:00:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Prove that Time exists.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/25/2016 2:09:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 7:00:58 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Prove that Time exists.

Time is something that appears to impact our existence therefore there is at least something to discuss. There is no indication that snakes can talk or there was a global flood so there is no starting point for a discussion.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.
HarveyMeale
Posts: 15
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7/26/2016 4:15:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.

Absolutely! It's interesting. At what point should we abandon the quest for truth and accuracy and wisdom and knowledge in order to ascertain happiness and utility? I've written previously about this topic and while i think believing in religion is a tragic commonality, if we're fundamentally happier by believing, then shouldn't that take precedence over truth and accuracy?

Of course, I'm with you. It's entirely possible to be as happy as a believer, if not more happy, as an atheist. Does get you thinking, though. Would you rather be deluded and happy or know the truth and miserable or less happy?
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/26/2016 4:03:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:15:42 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.

Absolutely! It's interesting. At what point should we abandon the quest for truth and accuracy and wisdom and knowledge in order to ascertain happiness and utility? I've written previously about this topic and while i think believing in religion is a tragic commonality, if we're fundamentally happier by believing, then shouldn't that take precedence over truth and accuracy?

Of course, I'm with you. It's entirely possible to be as happy as a believer, if not more happy, as an atheist. Does get you thinking, though. Would you rather be deluded and happy or know the truth and miserable or less happy?

But now I know the truth and I am more happy. I am a much more solid person now and I am more satisfied with my life and who I am without religion. When religious people go through tough spots in their life, they wonder what God's plan is, why he is letting it happen, etc. They spend their time praying to their invisible friend begging and pleading. Now, I don't take anything personally and have the attitude sh1t just happens so lets take care of it.
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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7/26/2016 10:38:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:03:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:15:42 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.

Absolutely! It's interesting. At what point should we abandon the quest for truth and accuracy and wisdom and knowledge in order to ascertain happiness and utility? I've written previously about this topic and while i think believing in religion is a tragic commonality, if we're fundamentally happier by believing, then shouldn't that take precedence over truth and accuracy?

Of course, I'm with you. It's entirely possible to be as happy as a believer, if not more happy, as an atheist. Does get you thinking, though. Would you rather be deluded and happy or know the truth and miserable or less happy?

But now I know the truth and I am more happy. I am a much more solid person now and I am more satisfied with my life and who I am without religion. When religious people go through tough spots in their life, they wonder what God's plan is, why he is letting it happen, etc. They spend their time praying to their invisible friend begging and pleading. Now, I don't take anything personally and have the attitude sh1t just happens so lets take care of it.

When I was the saddest, I believe in Christianity the most. While I wouldn't call myself "happy" now, I feel better, in comparison to the past at least. The only down-side of my atheism now, is that my family doesn't really accept that. My mother had thrown an absolute tantrum at me after I had told her. But I suppose it doesn't really bother me that much at least.
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

"You too must not count too much on your reality as you feel it today, since like yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." - Luigi Pirandello
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/27/2016 3:47:16 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 10:38:15 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:03:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:15:42 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.

Absolutely! It's interesting. At what point should we abandon the quest for truth and accuracy and wisdom and knowledge in order to ascertain happiness and utility? I've written previously about this topic and while i think believing in religion is a tragic commonality, if we're fundamentally happier by believing, then shouldn't that take precedence over truth and accuracy?

Of course, I'm with you. It's entirely possible to be as happy as a believer, if not more happy, as an atheist. Does get you thinking, though. Would you rather be deluded and happy or know the truth and miserable or less happy?

But now I know the truth and I am more happy. I am a much more solid person now and I am more satisfied with my life and who I am without religion. When religious people go through tough spots in their life, they wonder what God's plan is, why he is letting it happen, etc. They spend their time praying to their invisible friend begging and pleading. Now, I don't take anything personally and have the attitude sh1t just happens so lets take care of it.

When I was the saddest, I believe in Christianity the most. While I wouldn't call myself "happy" now, I feel better, in comparison to the past at least. The only down-side of my atheism now, is that my family doesn't really accept that. My mother had thrown an absolute tantrum at me after I had told her. But I suppose it doesn't really bother me that much at least.

That is unfortunate nonetheless and another example of the tribalism, us vs them mentality.
David_Debates
Posts: 260
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7/27/2016 7:11:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Two things:
1) Faith is different from conjecture. We don't know either is certain, but we have reason to believe one rather than the other.
2) Is it certain that the sun will rise tomorrow? But can you have faith that it will?
Heterodox
Posts: 293
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7/27/2016 8:04:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Isn't that the definition of faith? Belief without knowledge or evidence.
foxxhajti
Posts: 479
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7/27/2016 9:40:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/27/2016 3:47:16 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/26/2016 10:38:15 PM, foxxhajti wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:03:44 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:15:42 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:14:07 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:54:19 AM, HarveyMeale wrote:
At 7/23/2016 6:28:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/21/2016 5:39:40 AM, dee-u wrote:
Is this a valid question - "I don't know, but I have faith." when it comes to the existence of God? Can we have faith on something we don't know?

Thanks for anyone who could shed light on this.

Yes, you can believe lots of things without evidence but why would you?

Utility. Some people argue they're happier/better off/are benefited by believing in things without evidence and religion is a great example. Militant atheist here BTW.

Yes, as an ex-Christian I thought that too although I still wanted to believe it in because it was true, not because I wanted to believe in it. It seemed dishonest. To my surprise, I am much happier now. My mind is much more clear and I own my own life. It is a completely different paradigm that I value. I have influenced a few people in losing their religion and they all say the same thing.

Absolutely! It's interesting. At what point should we abandon the quest for truth and accuracy and wisdom and knowledge in order to ascertain happiness and utility? I've written previously about this topic and while i think believing in religion is a tragic commonality, if we're fundamentally happier by believing, then shouldn't that take precedence over truth and accuracy?

Of course, I'm with you. It's entirely possible to be as happy as a believer, if not more happy, as an atheist. Does get you thinking, though. Would you rather be deluded and happy or know the truth and miserable or less happy?

But now I know the truth and I am more happy. I am a much more solid person now and I am more satisfied with my life and who I am without religion. When religious people go through tough spots in their life, they wonder what God's plan is, why he is letting it happen, etc. They spend their time praying to their invisible friend begging and pleading. Now, I don't take anything personally and have the attitude sh1t just happens so lets take care of it.

When I was the saddest, I believe in Christianity the most. While I wouldn't call myself "happy" now, I feel better, in comparison to the past at least. The only down-side of my atheism now, is that my family doesn't really accept that. My mother had thrown an absolute tantrum at me after I had told her. But I suppose it doesn't really bother me that much at least.

That is unfortunate nonetheless and another example of the tribalism, us vs them mentality.

I'm fine with it. I mean, it doesn't really bother me that much. They still try to make me go to church and once in a while, my mother insults me due to my different beliefs, but at the end of the day, words are just words, and don't really affect me.
What's sad though is that people with those types of mentalities still exist to this day. In my country, where 97% of the population is Catholic, being an atheist is almost seen as a taboo, and one is bound to see shocked faces if he tells someone about that.
"It's interesting to observe that almost all truly worthy men have simple manners, and that simple manners are almost always taken as a sign of little worth" - Giacomo Leopardi

"It is more honorable to be raised to a throne than to be born to one. Fortune bestows the one, merit obtains the other." - Francesco Petrarca

"You too must not count too much on your reality as you feel it today, since like yesterday, it may prove an illusion for you tomorrow." - Luigi Pirandello