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Reincarnation . . .

SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/28/2010 9:50:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

from what I know... there's really no such chance

at least not any the least bit worth talking about.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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12/28/2010 9:51:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
could this constitute reincarnation?

if you believe in souls... prolly no.

if you don't... sure.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/28/2010 11:54:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Reincarnation needs a soul or some immutable part of identity to work.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/29/2010 5:50:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 11:54:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Reincarnation needs a soul or some immutable part of identity to work.

Are atoms an immutable part of identity?

Well, it's known that atoms have some sort of memory of the other atoms with which they've encountered.

Effectively, this means that they alter throughout the life of every living being they comprise.

Since matter is neither created nor destroyed, little parts of all of us reincarnate.

Most of us are made of the material of many men that have already existed, and a little piece of their lives is imbued in all of us.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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12/29/2010 3:53:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?:

Yeah, in a science fiction novel.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/29/2010 4:16:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/29/2010 5:50:46 AM, Ren wrote:
Are atoms an immutable part of identity?

Effectively, this means that they alter throughout the life of every living being they comprise.

Since matter is neither created nor destroyed, little parts of all of us reincarnate.

Most of us are made of the material of many men that have already existed, and a little piece of their lives is imbued in all of us.

I guess it depends on what you identify with. I've also heard this argument for reincarnation on the basis that we're all the same atoms recycled over and over again. I myself find the argument too far-fetched, stretching the notion of "identity".

Well, it's known that atoms have some sort of memory of the other atoms with which they've encountered.

That's interesting. Could you tell me more about this? I find this a little hard to grasp. Well, depending on what you actually mean by "memory", of course. Do you have an article?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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12/29/2010 5:45:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/29/2010 3:53:53 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?:

Yeah, in a science fiction novel.

That sounds like a good idea
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/30/2010 2:44:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 11:54:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Reincarnation needs a soul or some immutable part of identity to work.

I agree, reincarnation would need a "soul" to truly work. But I don't believe in a soul. So, I find reincarnation as we know it incredibly unlikely, since identity and the soul are not the same.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/30/2010 3:47:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/29/2010 4:16:16 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I guess it depends on what you identify with. I've also heard this argument for reincarnation on the basis that we're all the same atoms recycled over and over again. I myself find the argument too far-fetched, stretching the notion of "identity".

What do you mean by "far-fetched?"

Well, it's known that atoms have some sort of memory of the other atoms with which they've encountered.

That's interesting. Could you tell me more about this? I find this a little hard to grasp. Well, depending on what you actually mean by "memory", of course. Do you have an article?

Sure, here's three that touch on various aspects:

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.sciencemag.org...

http://socrates.berkeley.edu...

I don't quite remember what it's called specifically, the fact that some atoms will remember and continue to interact with other atoms to which they encounter, despite the distances between them following their initial encounter. You should look it up, but the third link touches on it indirectly, such as in the statement:

"The above experiments show that the hidden order within seemingly disordered systems can sometimes be revealed. It has also been shown that certain phenomena, such as molecular collisions, can induce elements in disorder into their hidden order, causing the echo strength to decay."
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/30/2010 11:49:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/30/2010 3:47:27 PM, Ren wrote:
What do you mean by "far-fetched?"

It means, when I think "reincarnation", I think of one thing, and then someone talks about the atom recycling, and I get disappointed because it seems totally irrelevant to what I was thinking.

Here's an example of the feeling it provokes: You're a waitress and your customer has just finished his sandwich. He says "Hello young lady, let me give you a tip". You smile and hold out your hand. He then says "Get a real job" and leaves.

That's interesting. Could you tell me more about this? I find this a little hard to grasp. Well, depending on what you actually mean by "memory", of course. Do you have an article?

Sure, here's three that touch on various aspects:

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.sciencemag.org...

http://socrates.berkeley.edu...

I don't quite remember what it's called specifically, the fact that some atoms will remember and continue to interact with other atoms to which they encounter, despite the distances between them following their initial encounter. You should look it up, but the third link touches on it indirectly, such as in the statement:

"The above experiments show that the hidden order within seemingly disordered systems can sometimes be revealed. It has also been shown that certain phenomena, such as molecular collisions, can induce elements in disorder into their hidden order, causing the echo strength to decay."

I'm not going to lie. One of them requires a subscription to see the full text, the other one was boring as hell, and the news article seemed to be talking about something different from the boring article. Based on what I read though (and that wasn't very much) it doesn't seem like it matches with what I traditionally think of when people use the word "memory".

The way I see it, and that's very simplistically, is that the whole universe is like a big pool table and the balls are flying in ways that aren't random, but according to the laws of physics. Each ball is an atom, and it must have been put to its current trajectory by other balls that it collided with.

The next part is my guesswork. When atoms collide, it impacts the way the particles within are arranged, to produce the appropriate bond. When the bond breaks, it doesn't exactly end up the way it was before.

So really, as I see it, when we refer to atomic memory, it really only means memory to the extent that a "fossil" can contain memory. It's vague, requires interpretation, and doesn't seem to have much impact on what it will do in the future. I don't see the connection to reincarnation.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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12/31/2010 7:13:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I myself find the argument too far-fetched, stretching the notion of "identity".

This is a sufficient response - OP's thought experiment would only be actualized if you define personal identity as having certain experiences, memory, etc. (there are plenty of discussion about this in philosophy of identity using science fiction-esque hypotheticals about wild brain surgeries, etc.)
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/31/2010 12:53:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Identity problems in philosophy are some of the trickiest and difficult problems in philosophy...that's why I tend to stay away from them. :P
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/31/2010 4:18:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You know, sometimes, I try to keep things a little obscure to force people to check for themselves, because otherwise, things are too complex to keep succinct. So, although I don't have a taste for word-bombing...

At 12/30/2010 11:49:07 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/30/2010 3:47:27 PM, Ren wrote:
What do you mean by "far-fetched?"

It means, when I think "reincarnation", I think of one thing, and then someone talks about the atom recycling, and I get disappointed because it seems totally irrelevant to what I was thinking.

Here's an example of the feeling it provokes: You're a waitress and your customer has just finished his sandwich. He says "Hello young lady, let me give you a tip". You smile and hold out your hand. He then says "Get a real job" and leaves.

That sounds more like predilection than anything.

That's interesting. Could you tell me more about this? I find this a little hard to grasp. Well, depending on what you actually mean by "memory", of course. Do you have an article?

Sure, here's three that touch on various aspects:

http://www.ibtimes.com...

http://www.sciencemag.org...

http://socrates.berkeley.edu...

I don't quite remember what it's called specifically, the fact that some atoms will remember and continue to interact with other atoms to which they encounter, despite the distances between them following their initial encounter. You should look it up, but the third link touches on it indirectly, such as in the statement:

"The above experiments show that the hidden order within seemingly disordered systems can sometimes be revealed. It has also been shown that certain phenomena, such as molecular collisions, can induce elements in disorder into their hidden order, causing the echo strength to decay."

I'm not going to lie. I don't really understand any of that material and rather than read it, I would prefer that you explain it to me.

Well, alright, then.

The first one, from IBM, indicates that IBM has discovered a way to determine how long it takes an atom to return to its initial "remembered" state after altering the orientation of its natural spin as a step toward some very serious nanotechnology that will make computers retarded fast. But, what it illustrates is that atoms have a basal state that they remember and always return to.

The second one is a study from Science Magazine that does not require a subscription, but rather, is a brief summary. However, the full text is available just below it. It is essentially a study of the same process that IBM utilized, for for the purpose of understanding quantum communication. That ties into what I was trying to find, but couldn't. Good news on that, but later.

The last one proved that although atoms have a basal memory, there is a certain "spin decay" with the nomenclature "electromagnetic echo phenomena," they can undergo that renders them disorganized and deviant from this basal state. However, there is a means of causing them to suddenly return to their basal state using lazer beams. I'm sorry you found that boring; I found it fascinating.

But, now, for the good news: the fact that atoms can remember one another. his, above all else, is what I was referring to initially. Atoms will remember other atoms with which they interact, resulting in various changes (perhaps electromagnetic echo phenomena is another one), so that each atom is altered by its "experiences," though retaining an "identity" as it's recycled through time.

Here is the quote from the book I derived the concept (all over the internet, but I didn't even check my own library, LOL :P ):

"Perhaps the most arresting of quantum improbabilities is the idea, arising from Wolfgang Pauli's Exclusion Principle of 1925, that subatomic particles in certain pairs, even when separated by the most considerable distances, can each instantly "know" what the other is doing. Particles have quality known as spin, and according to quantum theory, the movement you determine the spin of one particle, its sister particle, no matter how distant away, will immediate begin spinning in the opposite direction at the same time."

Perhaps you have on atom with one of these particles and I have another--they remember one another and now, given whatever we may be doing or electromagnetic fields with which we interact, can affect one another despite how far apart we are and the fact that we don't really know one another. This could be because, once upon a time, our atoms belong to a single thing that, throughout its life, caused these atoms to interact and change forever.

That, effectively, is a sort of reincarnation one way or another.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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1/1/2011 11:14:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/31/2010 4:18:26 PM, Ren wrote:
You know, sometimes, I try to keep things a little obscure to force people to check for themselves, because otherwise, things are too complex to keep succinct. So, although I don't have a taste for word-bombing...

No, that's not really going to happen. I actually find that counterproductive. If you want to get the ideas through to me as quickly and easily as possible, why would you redirect me to a source that's beyond my comprehension? Probably best to describe it to me here. I'm really tolerant of long responses. I would say more so than the average DDO member.

That sounds more like predilection than anything.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. I mean, I can look it up, but I can't connect that word to what's going on here.

The first one, from IBM, indicates that IBM has discovered a way to determine how long it takes an atom to return to its initial "remembered" state after altering the orientation of its natural spin as a step toward some very serious nanotechnology that will make computers retarded fast. But, what it illustrates is that atoms have a basal state that they remember and always return to.

Okay, I got that now.

The second one is a study from Science Magazine that does not require a subscription, but rather, is a brief summary. However, the full text is available just below it. It is essentially a study of the same process that IBM utilized, for for the purpose of understanding quantum communication. That ties into what I was trying to find, but couldn't. Good news on that, but later.

Alright, so this one is just some extra information on the first one. Got it.

The last one proved that although atoms have a basal memory, there is a certain "spin decay" with the nomenclature "electromagnetic echo phenomena," they can undergo that renders them disorganized and deviant from this basal state. However, there is a means of causing them to suddenly return to their basal state using lazer beams. I'm sorry you found that boring; I found it fascinating.

I think I found it boring because I had no idea what it was talking about. It's starting to sound a little more interesting now.

But, now, for the good news: the fact that atoms can remember one another. his, above all else, is what I was referring to initially. Atoms will remember other atoms with which they interact, resulting in various changes (perhaps electromagnetic echo phenomena is another one), so that each atom is altered by its "experiences," though retaining an "identity" as it's recycled through time.

Here is the quote from the book I derived the concept (all over the internet, but I didn't even check my own library, LOL :P ):

"Perhaps the most arresting of quantum improbabilities is the idea, arising from Wolfgang Pauli's Exclusion Principle of 1925, that subatomic particles in certain pairs, even when separated by the most considerable distances, can each instantly "know" what the other is doing. Particles have quality known as spin, and according to quantum theory, the movement you determine the spin of one particle, its sister particle, no matter how distant away, will immediate begin spinning in the opposite direction at the same time."

Perhaps you have on atom with one of these particles and I have another--they remember one another and now, given whatever we may be doing or electromagnetic fields with which we interact, can affect one another despite how far apart we are and the fact that we don't really know one another. This could be because, once upon a time, our atoms belong to a single thing that, throughout its life, caused these atoms to interact and change forever.

That, effectively, is a sort of reincarnation one way or another.

Okay, I think I've grasped this. Just one question first: These subatomic changes to the atom, the things that make them differ from their basal state. I'm assuming that formation of molecular bonds will do this. What actually happens when an atom that was once bonded with something, bonds with something else? Will that memory be retained?

From what you're telling me, this memory isn't really memory. It's not chronological. It seems more like a loose interpretation of the word "memory".

I'm imagining it like this: A ball of flour hurled at a rounded surface will have a rounded imprint. Hurled at a pointed one, it will have a sharp indent. Hurled at a flat surface, it will have a flat spot. This "memory" technique will help it "remember" what it was attached to, in a way, but after several of these deformations, is the memory still viable?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/5/2011 12:23:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Are you the same person that does not understand how making a computerised duplicate of yourself is not immortality?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
SuperRobotWars
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1/5/2011 3:54:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 12:23:45 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Are you the same person that does not understand how making a computerised duplicate of yourself is not immortality?

Why the hostility this is simply a philosophical question . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/6/2011 12:37:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 3:54:18 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 1/5/2011 12:23:45 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 12/28/2010 9:04:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Suppose I die and in accordance to biological principle there is an incredibly small chance that a child will be born with my exact genetic make up, and there is also the off chance that they will experience a variant of the exact same things I have in life, could this constitute reincarnation?

No. Are you the same person that does not understand how making a computerised duplicate of yourself is not immortality?

Why the hostility this is simply a philosophical question . . .

What hostility?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.