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Archetypal plane

janesix
Posts: 3,439
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7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,935
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7/30/2016 9:39:10 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

I'm generally sympathetic to platonic ideas like forms. But why does free will need wiggle room?
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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7/30/2016 9:49:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:39:10 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

I'm generally sympathetic to platonic ideas like forms. But why does free will need wiggle room?
Because if everything were exact to form then there could be no room for free will. At least it seems that way to me.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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7/31/2016 2:55:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

What's an archetypal plane?
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
keithprosser
Posts: 1,935
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7/31/2016 3:11:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
It's more the archetypal plane. In Platonic thought it is the realm of perfect objects or 'forms', the place where things like perfect circles, ideal gasses and frictionless surfaces are found. Objects in our plane are imperfect copies of an ideal archetype in the 'realm of forms', aka the 'archtypal plane'.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

If you don't like the idea of take it up with Plato - I'm just the messenger.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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8/1/2016 2:40:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 3:11:43 PM, keithprosser wrote:
It's more the archetypal plane. In Platonic thought it is the realm of perfect objects or 'forms', the place where things like perfect circles, ideal gasses and frictionless surfaces are found. Objects in our plane are imperfect copies of an ideal archetype in the 'realm of forms', aka the 'archtypal plane'.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

If you don't like the idea of take it up with Plato - I'm just the messenger.

Ah, okay. I didn't know the realm had a name (sorry I'm not well-read in metaphysics.) Thanks.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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8/1/2016 3:19:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

Why do you retain a realist view of forms? It must have been highly appealing in Ancient Greece, but our knowledge of the world has moved on, and we now know much about emergence. It would seem more plausible, to me at least, that forms are emergent phenomena of underlying laws.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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8/1/2016 6:16:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 3:19:14 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

Why do you retain a realist view of forms? It must have been highly appealing in Ancient Greece, but our knowledge of the world has moved on, and we now know much about emergence. It would seem more plausible, to me at least, that forms are emergent phenomena of underlying laws.

The thing is, even a law can be a Platonic form in a sense. Basically, if your philosophy posits something underlying changing appearances which remains absolutely identical over time, then you're probably invoking something Platonic. Even many people who want to see themselves as hardcore skeptics still find it hard to formulate a philosophy which doesn't end up relying on something like this, since it's not easy to avoid.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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8/1/2016 7:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/1/2016 3:19:14 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:49:57 PM, janesix wrote:
Everything must have a predetermined form and exist on another level, an archetypal plane. That is why things are imperfect here yet hint at perfect form. This gives wiggle room for free will.

Why do you retain a realist view of forms? It must have been highly appealing in Ancient Greece, but our knowledge of the world has moved on, and we now know much about emergence. It would seem more plausible, to me at least, that forms are emergent phenomena of underlying laws.

Ideal forms are obvious when you look at the earth moon and sun. It also explains convergence in evolution.