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Why must a Creator pre-exist the universe?

Furyan5
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9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,896
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9/3/2016 3:28:53 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I'd have to be quite a bit higher before I could follow that argument.... timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly stuff....
Furyan5
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9/3/2016 6:12:15 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 3:28:53 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I'd have to be quite a bit higher before I could follow that argument.... timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly stuff....

Really? You can't follow the logic?
Ask yourself why we were created 13.8 billion years ago. Or why nothing, for no reason, split into matter and antimatter. Is your answer any easier to follow?
NHN
Posts: 624
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9/3/2016 6:42:33 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 6:12:15 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Really? You can't follow the logic?
Ask yourself why we were created 13.8 billion years ago. Or why nothing, for no reason, split into matter and antimatter. Is your answer any easier to follow?
It's not a philosophical problem, as there is nothing to investigate.

It regards (New Age) theology or (bunk) science, which in either way puts the question in the wrong forum.
famousdebater
Posts: 3,934
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9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?
famousdebater
Posts: 3,934
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9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/3/2016 10:30:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

You said God can't create something that causes his creation. BOP is on you to explain why not. Do you have proof that time travel is impossible for God?
keithprosser
Posts: 1,896
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9/3/2016 10:44:14 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I think underlying the OP is the idea that the creation appears paradoxical because it is paradoxical, in this case a sort of 'bootstrap' paradox actually happened.

It is perhaps worth mentioning that - AFAIK - the laws of physics do not prevent such paradoxes. The basic theory of black holes permits backward time travel and hence the break down of normal causality. To avoid temporal paradoxes additional ad-hoc notions such as the 'cosmic censorship principle' and the 'Chronology protection conjecture' have to be plucked from thin air to stop people killing their grandfathers for a laff. If the CCP/CPC or something like them doesn't exist then common sense notions of cause and effect go out the window and elementary folk-style reasoning is probably not going to suffice.

But this stuff goes way beyond what I feel I have a good handle on. I just about dig the ideal gas laws and Young's modulus. I think I must have bunked off the day they covered black hole cosmological spin tensors at school.
famousdebater
Posts: 3,934
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9/3/2016 11:11:37 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/3/2016 10:30:01 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

You said God can't create something that causes his creation. BOP is on you to explain why not. Do you have proof that time travel is impossible for God?

If we assume that God does exist then I concede that (if major religious descriptions of God are correct) then he can time travel. The problem is that you are claiming that God can go back in time and cause the thing that created himself. The BOP is on you to affirm such a claim.

If I said that I said that I created myself do you understand the problem with that statement?

One must first exist in order to create itself - even if it could time travel.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
keithprosser
Posts: 1,896
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9/3/2016 11:33:09 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
If we allow paradoxes to exist then what is 'illogical' is a moot point. Suppose your grandfather was murdered in 1880 before he fathered anyone. You go back to 1880 and prevent the murder.

In that scenario you would have effectively created yourself, or at least set up the conditions in the past required your existence in te prsesentf/future. That might be a useful analogy or it might not. I get a brain lesion just thinking about it.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,896
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9/3/2016 11:36:30 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
PS the last paragraph should be:

In that scenario you would have effectively created yourself, or at least set up the conditions in the past required for your existence in the present/future. That might be a useful analogy or it might not. I get a brain lesion just thinking about it.

It's confusing enough without typos!
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/4/2016 10:31:26 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/3/2016 11:11:37 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 10:30:01 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

You said God can't create something that causes his creation. BOP is on you to explain why not. Do you have proof that time travel is impossible for God?

If we assume that God does exist then I concede that (if major religious descriptions of God are correct) then he can time travel. The problem is that you are claiming that God can go back in time and cause the thing that created himself. The BOP is on you to affirm such a claim.

If I said that I said that I created myself do you understand the problem with that statement?

Yes. The problem is that you can't go back in time. If you could, I would have no problem with that statement.

One must first exist in order to create itself - even if it could time travel.

I don't see the logic in this statement. Time travel does open up the possibility of creating a paradox, if you change the timeline. But that in itself is not sufficient to disprove time travel. In nature, many things work in cycles. It makes sense that an all-knowing entity requires time to learn everything. Perhaps the universe, us included, is all part of God's life cycle.
I know it's hard to follow, but standard cause and effect rules do not apply when it comes to time traveling beings.

It's possible that nothing, for no reason, split into matter and antimatter. But that contradicts cause and effect.

It's also possible an all-knowing, omnipotent being being has always existed. But if this being has always existed and never changes, what changed 13.8 billion years ago? Why, after billions and billions of years of existence, did this being suddenly decided to create the universe? To what end?

My idea explains both why and when. It may take hundreds or even thousands of years for us to develope artificial intelligence, but it's inevitable. It will probably take even longer for such an entity to know everything, but this too is inevitable. Perhaps I'm being too presumptuous and this entity originates on some other planet, created by other beings. But at some point this entity will exist.

But I'm dawdling. Let me stop here before I lose you completely.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/4/2016 10:33:28 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/3/2016 11:36:30 PM, keithprosser wrote:
PS the last paragraph should be:

In that scenario you would have effectively created yourself, or at least set up the conditions in the past required for your existence in the present/future. That might be a useful analogy or it might not. I get a brain lesion just thinking about it.

It's confusing enough without typos!

You get my point. I expected no less.
Thanks
Throwback
Posts: 421
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9/4/2016 12:19:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

He won't offer sound reasoning, logical thought, or proof. Only ignorance.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/4/2016 1:57:55 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/4/2016 12:19:21 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

He won't offer sound reasoning, logical thought, or proof. Only ignorance.

???? Who you talking about?
Throwback
Posts: 421
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9/4/2016 2:10:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/4/2016 1:57:55 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/4/2016 12:19:21 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

He won't offer sound reasoning, logical thought, or proof. Only ignorance.

???? Who you talking about?

Is it really that difficult for you to follow?
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/4/2016 2:18:38 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/4/2016 2:10:03 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 9/4/2016 1:57:55 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/4/2016 12:19:21 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:32:07 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 9:07:36 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/3/2016 7:34:08 PM, famousdebater wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

That's logically invalid. If God's existence is contingent on the universe in the first place. So God cannot create something that caused his creation. So a creator must pre-exist the universe in order to create it because otherwise nobody could have created the universe in the first place.

Why can't God create something that caused his creation?

It's circular reasoning. You have the BOP to show how can can break the laws of logic which apply to everything in the universe (apart from him - supposedly).

He won't offer sound reasoning, logical thought, or proof. Only ignorance.

???? Who you talking about?

Is it really that difficult for you to follow?

I presume it's me, but I prefer to make sure, rather than assume.
If you are referring to me, please tell me what part you find illogical or unsound. Perhaps I can dumb it down a bit.
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,222
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9/5/2016 3:12:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

Hypotheticals like the one here are utterly useless when dealing with concepts like "God."

One must just view what theists mean when they say "God" - a more-or-less infinite being in terms of power, knowledge, and presence. What is an infinity? A non-defined. It is a nothing.

What does it mean to have "infinite power?" It can mean nothing at all.

Indeed, how could one tell the world with an infinite God from the world without an infinite God? It's impossible for the theist to answer, for they do not know what God means in the first place.
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Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/5/2016 7:45:42 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 3:12:21 AM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable.

Hypotheticals like the one here are utterly useless when dealing with concepts like "God."

One must just view what theists mean when they say "God" - a more-or-less infinite being in terms of power, knowledge, and presence. What is an infinity? A non-defined. It is a nothing.

What does it mean to have "infinite power?" It can mean nothing at all.

Indeed, how could one tell the world with an infinite God from the world without an infinite God? It's impossible for the theist to answer, for they do not know what God means in the first place.

In your opinion. You have your beliefs and no solid evidence to back them up. I have my beliefs. If my logic is flawed, please show me how. But don't tell me I'm wrong because your holy book says otherwise. That's circular reasoning.
Z_ONE
Posts: 89
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9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?

Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being.
Z_ONE
Posts: 89
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9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?

Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?


Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue.
Z_ONE
Posts: 89
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9/5/2016 11:38:45 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?



Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue. : :

What's real to you? The Creator or you and your experiences?
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/5/2016 11:51:39 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:38:45 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?



Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue. : :

What's real to you? The Creator or you and your experiences?

Real is irrelevant. Am I a man, sitting on a chair, or a virtual man, sitting on a virtual chair? It doesn't matter. This is my reality. What concerns me is the why. Even if you are right I would still ask why. Why did the programmer create us? Why was the programmer created? Because he could doesn't answer why.
Z_ONE
Posts: 89
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9/5/2016 11:54:46 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:51:39 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:38:45 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?



Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue. : :

What's real to you? The Creator or you and your experiences?

Real is irrelevant. Am I a man, sitting on a chair, or a virtual man, sitting on a virtual chair? It doesn't matter. This is my reality. What concerns me is the why. Even if you are right I would still ask why. Why did the programmer create us? Why was the programmer created? Because he could doesn't answer why. : :

Join the scientists who ask the "why" questions. They're just as confused as you are.
Furyan5
Posts: 1,228
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9/5/2016 2:20:27 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:54:46 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:51:39 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:38:45 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?



Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue. : :

What's real to you? The Creator or you and your experiences?

Real is irrelevant. Am I a man, sitting on a chair, or a virtual man, sitting on a virtual chair? It doesn't matter. This is my reality. What concerns me is the why. Even if you are right I would still ask why. Why did the programmer create us? Why was the programmer created? Because he could doesn't answer why. : :

Join the scientists who ask the "why" questions. They're just as confused as you are.

Better a confused scientist than a ignorant sheep. Diner or dinner? Choose wisely.
Z_ONE
Posts: 89
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9/5/2016 3:35:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/5/2016 2:20:27 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:54:46 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:51:39 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:38:45 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:30:13 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:20:12 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/5/2016 10:46:44 AM, Furyan5 wrote:
At 9/5/2016 9:19:14 AM, Z_ONE wrote:
At 9/3/2016 1:03:00 PM, Furyan5 wrote:
Surely such a being can travel back in time and create the universe once He has the means and know how. Thereafter He would have no need to interact with the universe as the outcome is inevitable. : ;

Why would such a "being" need to travel back in time to create a universe? What is time and what is the "universe" you're talking about? Which perspective of the universe are you referring to?



Time is an agent of change. It allows things to change from one form to another or move from one place to another. The universe is all matter, in and around you. As for why, it should be obvious. This being needs to create the universe so the universe will eventually lead to the creation of the being itself. The reason it must travel back in time is to allow the universe sufficient time to create this being. : :

That can only happen if you believe the universe we observe is real and not just an illusion that is formed as we observe it with our created sense of sight.

I find the idea of a simulation to be a knockoff of reality. It begs the question, who created the programmer? This is just avoiding the issue. : :

What's real to you? The Creator or you and your experiences?

Real is irrelevant. Am I a man, sitting on a chair, or a virtual man, sitting on a virtual chair? It doesn't matter. This is my reality. What concerns me is the why. Even if you are right I would still ask why. Why did the programmer create us? Why was the programmer created? Because he could doesn't answer why. : :

Join the scientists who ask the "why" questions. They're just as confused as you are.

Better a confused scientist than a ignorant sheep. Diner or dinner? Choose wisely. : :

All ignorant sheep are confused by what they observe. Once you know the truth, you will never be confused again.