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Free Will

wamba
Posts: 688
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1/7/2011 10:48:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 10:40:49 PM, flamebreath wrote:
At 1/7/2011 9:10:58 PM, wamba wrote:
Yes?

Exactly How?

Because I can do what I want to do?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/7/2011 10:51:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm sort of torn on the topic, mostly because I don't think I'm educated enough to form an opinion on it... but I'm inclined to go with, no, it doesn't exist.
wamba
Posts: 688
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1/7/2011 10:53:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 10:51:33 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I'm sort of torn on the topic, mostly because I don't think I'm educated enough to form an opinion on it... but I'm inclined to go with, no, it doesn't exist.

how so?
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/7/2011 10:57:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 10:53:03 PM, wamba wrote:
At 1/7/2011 10:51:33 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
I'm sort of torn on the topic, mostly because I don't think I'm educated enough to form an opinion on it... but I'm inclined to go with, no, it doesn't exist.

how so?

Because it doesn't agree with biological determinism...
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/7/2011 11:00:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 10:57:39 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:

Because it doesn't agree with biological determinism...

And there are things in Psychology that don't seem to agree with it either, such as Personality theory. Like, if my personality is pre-determined, then I'm predisposed to do certain things.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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1/7/2011 11:09:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yeah, this has bugged me for awhile. I'm leaning towards determinism since that makes the most sense to me... But I'm not sure I'm ready to "become" a determinist. Lol.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 11:12:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:09:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
I'm not sure I'm ready to "become" a determinist. Lol.

what's the problem?? do we smell funny or sumthin?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 11:15:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:12:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:09:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
I'm not sure I'm ready to "become" a determinist. Lol.

what's the problem?? do we smell funny or sumthin?

people think there are somehow uncomfortable Ethical implications...

but for a self-avowed moral Nihilist... I wouldn't think that'd be it with you..
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/7/2011 11:19:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I do not believe that our choices are pre-determined, nor do I believe we have free-will. However, our choices are more or less random. Sure, our environment and genetic makeup determine certain actions, but the choice of what to have for dinner is somewhat random, but is your choice as much as a coin choice would show up heads.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist. which is why i consider myself a compatibilist
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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1/7/2011 11:29:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:12:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:09:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
I'm not sure I'm ready to "become" a determinist. Lol.

what's the problem?? do we smell funny or sumthin?

I'm not versed enough in determinism to actually call myself a determinist. Sure, I've read about it and so far, it seems reasonable but...
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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1/7/2011 11:38:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:15:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:12:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:09:58 PM, annhasle wrote:
I'm not sure I'm ready to "become" a determinist. Lol.

what's the problem?? do we smell funny or sumthin?

people think there are somehow uncomfortable Ethical implications...

but for a self-avowed moral Nihilist... I wouldn't think that'd be it with you..

Lol. Believe me, it comes down to the level of knowledge I have about determinism -- not determinism itself. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/7/2011 11:43:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The example I like to use is that Harry Potter and Voldemort had very similar childhoods. They were both half-bloods in a sense, they were both orphans, they could both speak to snakes, neither knew he was a wizard until he was 11 years old, etc. But one chose the extreme path of evil and the other chose the extreme path of good. The only difference between Harry and Voldemort is their personalities. Harry could have gone the way of Voldemort and he chose not to... Was it because of free will or because his personality predisposed him to reject the path of evil??

I think I should go to bed -__-
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 11:45:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....

Most people are religious (believe in soul-stuff and the like)... and I gotta think the majority of them believe in libertarian free will.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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1/7/2011 11:48:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....

Really?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
nonentity
Posts: 5,008
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1/7/2011 11:49:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:45:02 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....

Most people are religious (believe in soul-stuff and the like)... and I gotta think the majority of them believe in libertarian free will.

I think they only believe in free will as part of their cognitive dissonance... It's the only way they can explain the Argument from Evil and keep their beliefs congruent.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/7/2011 11:49:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:45:02 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....

Most people are religious (believe in soul-stuff and the like)... and I gotta think the majority of them believe in libertarian free will.

meh you ask people if they believe in souls they'll say yes, but ask what a soul is they can't tell you (i've had that experience many times). people don't really think about these things. but if they did i doubt they would end up with libertarian free will... because of the aforementioned violation of physics.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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1/7/2011 11:51:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:49:13 PM, TulleKrazy wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:45:02 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:42:56 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:38:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:25:58 PM, belle wrote:
if affirm free will in the libertarian sense, you're basically saying that life violates the laws of physics lol.

however, i think when people say free will they mean what askbob said- "i can do what i want". in that sense free will surely does exist.

in that sense I believe in free will too!
but in that sense... Pretty much Everyone does.

so.. that's not a very interesting thing to talk about...

lol. and i'll bet you that if they think about it for more than 5 minutes, pretty much no one believes in libertarian free will... so....

Most people are religious (believe in soul-stuff and the like)... and I gotta think the majority of them believe in libertarian free will.

I think they only believe in free will as part of their cognitive dissonance... It's the only way they can explain the Argument from Evil and keep their beliefs congruent.

Yeah, that's the reason.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 11:53:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:49:33 PM, belle wrote:
meh you ask people if they believe in souls they'll say yes, but ask what a soul is they can't tell you (i've had that experience many times). people don't really think about these things. but if they did i doubt they would end up with libertarian free will... because of the aforementioned violation of physics.

When those many people say "there's something more"... that's what they really believe...

they don't think the (physical) Brain is it... they think there's something else involved... Specifically with decisions.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/7/2011 11:59:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:53:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:49:33 PM, belle wrote:
meh you ask people if they believe in souls they'll say yes, but ask what a soul is they can't tell you (i've had that experience many times). people don't really think about these things. but if they did i doubt they would end up with libertarian free will... because of the aforementioned violation of physics.

When those many people say "there's something more"... that's what they really believe...

they don't think the (physical) Brain is it... they think there's something else involved... Specifically with decisions.

ask them and find out!

actually they'll prolly just contradict themselves, lol, but its worth a shot.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/8/2011 12:00:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:59:18 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:53:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:49:33 PM, belle wrote:
meh you ask people if they believe in souls they'll say yes, but ask what a soul is they can't tell you (i've had that experience many times). people don't really think about these things. but if they did i doubt they would end up with libertarian free will... because of the aforementioned violation of physics.

When those many people say "there's something more"... that's what they really believe...

they don't think the (physical) Brain is it... they think there's something else involved... Specifically with decisions.

ask them and find out!

actually they'll prolly just contradict themselves, lol, but its worth a shot.

they usually don't say enough about it to contradict themselves..

it usually sticks at "something more"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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1/8/2011 12:05:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/8/2011 12:00:54 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:59:18 PM, belle wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:53:33 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:49:33 PM, belle wrote:
meh you ask people if they believe in souls they'll say yes, but ask what a soul is they can't tell you (i've had that experience many times). people don't really think about these things. but if they did i doubt they would end up with libertarian free will... because of the aforementioned violation of physics.

When those many people say "there's something more"... that's what they really believe...

they don't think the (physical) Brain is it... they think there's something else involved... Specifically with decisions.

ask them and find out!

actually they'll prolly just contradict themselves, lol, but its worth a shot.

they usually don't say enough about it to contradict themselves..

it usually sticks at "something more"

thats what follow up questions are for
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/8/2011 12:07:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/8/2011 12:00:54 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
it usually sticks at "something more"

maybe PCP can elaborate on what that something is though..

I'm guessing:
Mind Stuff.. it's what you currently experience... but it's not Caused by the Brain.. Rather the brain's operations just kind of Reflect the operations of the mind..

they're separate.. but consistent.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/8/2011 12:07:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/8/2011 12:05:00 AM, belle wrote:
At 1/8/2011 12:00:54 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
it usually sticks at "something more"

thats what follow up questions are for

and it usually Continues to stick there
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."