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Just made this up

Discipulus_Didicit
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11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
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ShabShoral
Posts: 3,235
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11/13/2016 12:45:18 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?
No
Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.
Yes
Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.
Shoot
Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.
Doesn't matter to me
This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

What is this supposed to prove? The ethics of emergencies are wholly distinct from the ethics of normal life and no comparisons can be made.
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Discipulus_Didicit
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11/13/2016 12:51:30 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:45:18 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
What is this supposed to prove?

Uhhh... nothing... was this supposed to prove something? Gosh, I've been going about this all wrong.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/13/2016 6:32:44 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

I don't get the idea. Is there a point to this exercise? All I get out of it is that sometimes moral decision making is easy and sometimes it's difficult. Was there something else?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Discipulus_Didicit
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11/13/2016 6:44:52 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 6:32:44 PM, philochristos wrote:
I don't get the idea. Is there a point to this exercise?

This is the philosophy forum, is there a point to anything said here?
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
ShabShoral
Posts: 3,235
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11/13/2016 11:10:20 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 6:44:52 PM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
At 11/13/2016 6:32:44 PM, philochristos wrote:
I don't get the idea. Is there a point to this exercise?

This is the philosophy forum, is there a point to anything said here?

There ought to be, lol
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

~ Skepsikyma <3

"Your idea of good writing is like Spinoza mixed with Heidegger."

~ Dylly Dylly Cat Cat

"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

~ Thett the Mighty

"fvck omg ur face"

~ Liz
Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
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11/14/2016 3:14:25 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

I don't murder the children.

Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

I sacrifice myself to save the children.

Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

I shoot Person A to save the children.

Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

I shoot Person B to save Person A. Person B is an idiot.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 1,870
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11/14/2016 7:21:23 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?
Am I in the room. With the children? Details ya know
Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.
A button releases an antidote while releasing the poison....
Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.
How do I know pushing the button will save the person? I must be the poisoner
Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.
Does the bullet fit the pistol? Is the pistol functioning?
This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)
I'd use the pistol to shoot you if the bullet fits you must use it.
I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,137
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11/14/2016 3:56:07 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

Why not?

Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

I guess I'll have to tough it out, and search for an alternate solution.

Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

I can just threaten person A with the gun. A bullet is not required to keep them from pressing the button, but its a nice back-up plan. Sparing or killing the children for person A-hole's life isn't my decision to make, but its not theirs either.

Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

If person B doesn't know this, perhaps I should just explain it to them, and go from there. Chances are they are reasonable. Perhaps Person A-hole is being put down for a good reason. Context was not given. If not, I'll just have to take my chances and press the button. If I have to defend myself, so be it. I doubt person B is a blind killer though.

This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

No I don't.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Perussi
Posts: 777
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11/14/2016 5:56:30 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

It wouldn't benefit me in any way. I don't think it would be enjoyable to watch them die via poison gas so i would not press it.

Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

I'll live -_- (nope)

I don't care more about my life as 10 children's lives.

Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

I will keep them away from the button and kill if i have to or if i am about to die and they are not. If at all possible i would attempt to free the children with the gun. The reason being is that i believe the children's lives are more important that that presons and mine and i want to protect the children if possible.

Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

If person B is close enough i would attempt to disarm them and attack them melee and if not i would try to get them on the draw and if i miss i would attack as stated. I would not hold back at all in any way in my attack but try not to kill them.

This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.
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Perussi
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11/14/2016 5:59:36 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 6:32:44 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

I don't get the idea. Is there a point to this exercise? All I get out of it is that sometimes moral decision making is easy and sometimes it's difficult. Was there something else?

It is to survey why people do what they do.
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Funny Quotes:

"i worship satan and allahu akbar and hispanic muslims i am an illigal immigrant"
-communist_snake-

"What fuking dates are you talking about child. the and ridiculous and stay out of mummies drugs, you're fuked."
-I'll keep this anonymous...-

"fuk off bog, no one even reads your crap, what price is you hooker now?"
-same dude as above....-
Discipulus_Didicit
Posts: 3,089
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11/14/2016 7:23:14 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Yet people will argue for hours over the merits of the 'trolley problem'

Lol.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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11/15/2016 2:32:34 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

Yep. Push the button.


Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

Push the button.


Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

Shoot A, then push the button.


Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

Shoot B, push the button.


This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

Buttons are addictive. Push 'em all.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Quadrunner
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11/16/2016 10:31:22 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/15/2016 2:32:34 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 11/13/2016 11:37:30 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
This is kind of like the Trolley Problem, except that it will actually provide a moral dilemma. It goes step-by-step, each step building on the last. Choices will be easy to make at first but gradually grow harder.

Step one

Ten young children are locked in a room. A button in front of you will fill the room with poison gas. Do you press the button?

Yep. Push the button.


Step two.

Same as step one, except that you have been poisoned and pressing the button is the only way to release an antidote.

Push the button.


Step three

Same as two, but you are no longer the person deciding whether to push the button. That job now belongs to person A. Person A will die if the button is not pressed but you will not. You have a pistol with a single bullet, which you may use to prevent person A from pushing the button if you think they will do so.

Shoot A, then push the button.

Triggered


Step four

Now the button no longer releases poison gas into the room with the children, but it still releases an antidote. However, person B does not know this. Person B has a loaded pistol and has stated his intention to make sure the button is not pressed no matter what. Person A will die if the button is not pressed, but neither you or person B will be harmed. Nothing you say can convince person B that the button is now safe. You still have a pistol with one bullet.

Shoot B, push the button.


This can go on as long as you want, getting more meta with each step. As you can see the choice is obvious when it starts with step one (do not push button) but gets harder with each step, until suddenly with step four a utilitarion solution becomes impossible and the choice more difficult (shoot B, or allow A to die when you could prevent it by simply pressing a button?)

I could easily make a step five, six, etc. but I think you get the idea at this point.

Buttons are addictive. Push 'em all.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.