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A Question

M.Torres
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1/23/2011 7:26:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So I heard from GeoLaureate the prospect of "the universe always being there". I once thought of this idea, but dismissed it as impossible since all things have origins (law of conservation of matter). But obviously there is theory behind it.

So my question is this:

How is it possible that the universe might have always been here?

I'm curious to learn something new.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
rarugged
Posts: 172
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1/23/2011 7:29:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The enormity of the scale of the question you present is considerable.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/23/2011 7:31:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
That's pretty much what I believe.

Why? It's hard to imagine something coming from nothing. And if there was a god that created everything, where did god come from? If you say that god never had a start or beginning, why couldn't the universe?

That's it. Hows that for an informed opinion?

That said, I don't really know.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
M.Torres
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1/23/2011 7:37:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:29:59 PM, rarugged wrote:
The enormity of the scale of the question you present is considerable.

Does that make it unanswerable?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
rarugged
Posts: 172
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1/23/2011 7:39:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:37:53 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:29:59 PM, rarugged wrote:
The enormity of the scale of the question you present is considerable.

Does that make it unanswerable?

I'm by no means an astrological expert, but I do believe that if we knew the answer to this question, our scientific and religious spheres would undergo revolution.

It's yet to occur, but my hopes are up.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/23/2011 7:40:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
M.Torres
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1/23/2011 7:44:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.

No theories then?

Didn't realize debaters on a debate site would have such a unanimous opinion. :/

That doesn't really help much then. But oh well.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/23/2011 7:44:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.

How is this ("How is it possible that the universe might have always been here?") an unanswerable question?

He's simply asking whether it's possible that the Universe is eternal. It's very simple to answer. Yes, it's possible. One would have to demonstrate a logical incoherency with an eternal Universe in order to render it impossible.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2011 7:46:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:44:04 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.

No theories then?

Just because we may not have the answer doesn't mean there aren't any theories. In fact, the fact that we don't know the answer is the reason why we have theories.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/23/2011 7:47:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
By that I mean whether or not we can say for sure or not.

Personally, I believe the universe has always been here. Makes the most sense to me.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
M.Torres
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1/23/2011 7:48:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:46:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:44:04 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.

No theories then?

Just because we may not have the answer doesn't mean there aren't any theories. In fact, the fact that we don't know the answer is the reason why we have theories.

I was hoping to hear some of those theories.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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1/23/2011 11:26:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:26:41 PM, M.Torres wrote:
So I heard from GeoLaureate the prospect of "the universe always being there". I once thought of this idea, but dismissed it as impossible since all things have origins (law of conservation of matter). But obviously there is theory behind it.

So my question is this:

How is it possible that the universe might have always been here?

I'm curious to learn something new.

If you already know about the conservation of matter then you know that only the conceptualization of things come into existence not the matter itself. (Mass cannot be created or destroyed)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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1/24/2011 9:55:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is nothing, i mean really nothing even conceivable? I don't mean a void, because that would be something, I mean absolutely nothingness in any and every possible existence, in matter, conception, energy, time, dimension, nothing at all. Can we even wrap our minds around such a concept?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/24/2011 10:45:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's hard to wrap my mind around infinity...

Though infinity seems easier than nothing.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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1/24/2011 11:07:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Infinity follows from any "something"

Nothing doesn't follow from anything... and results in nothing..

Given that there's something (which there is) infinity follows... and "nothingness" is most assuredly not the case!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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1/24/2011 3:25:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:31:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That's pretty much what I believe.

Why? It's hard to imagine something coming from nothing. And if there was a god that created everything, where did god come from? If you say that god never had a start or beginning, why couldn't the universe?

That's it. Hows that for an informed opinion?

That said, I don't really know.

Why do you find it necessary to make God (the creator) no different from his creation ?
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/24/2011 3:37:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 11:26:17 PM, tigg13 wrote:
If you already know about the conservation of matter then you know that only the conceptualization of things come into existence not the matter itself. (Mass cannot be created or destroyed)

well, it's not mere conceptualization-- it's the structuring, shaping, ordering of things, in physical space not merely in.. but other than that, this. The law of conservation of matter, if held to be true in all contexts, points to eternality of matter.

(Eternality of the universe is just obvious. The universe means all things that exist. If there is nothing anywhere, there cannot later be something somewhere-- a potential something is always an actual something else.)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 3:25:10 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:31:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That's pretty much what I believe.

Why? It's hard to imagine something coming from nothing. And if there was a god that created everything, where did god come from? If you say that god never had a start or beginning, why couldn't the universe?

That's it. Hows that for an informed opinion?

That said, I don't really know.

Why do you find it necessary to make God (the creator) no different from his creation ?

The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/24/2011 5:00:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.

then how's it a creation???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/24/2011 5:02:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 5:00:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.

then how's it a creation???

It isn't. That is the point.

The universe wasn't created.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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1/24/2011 5:28:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Well, I think it goes both ways. If the universe has always existed, a God could, too.

Where did God come from? He existed forever. Yes, forever. How? Time doesn't exist outside of our universe. There's no past, present or future outside of our universe. It's just eternal, forever, always. It's kind of mind boggling, but that's just something people need to accept.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
rarugged
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1/24/2011 5:42:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God's an excuse to explain knowledge beyond human grasp.
If Jesus came back tomorrow, a cross would be the last thing he would want to see.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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1/24/2011 6:22:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 5:02:48 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/24/2011 5:00:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.

then how's it a creation???

It isn't. That is the point.

The universe wasn't created.

Prove it.
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vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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1/24/2011 6:24:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/24/2011 3:25:10 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:31:29 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
That's pretty much what I believe.

Why? It's hard to imagine something coming from nothing. And if there was a god that created everything, where did god come from? If you say that god never had a start or beginning, why couldn't the universe?

That's it. Hows that for an informed opinion?

That said, I don't really know.

Why do you find it necessary to make God (the creator) no different from his creation ?

The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.

Then when it comes to religion we don't have much to talk about
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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1/24/2011 6:26:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 5:42:59 PM, rarugged wrote:
God's an excuse to explain knowledge beyond human grasp.

>.>
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
tvellalott
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1/24/2011 6:34:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The origin of the Universe isn't an unanswerable question. It's simply an unanswered question.

"All ideas concerning the very early universe (cosmogony) are speculative. As of early 2010, no accelerator experiments probe energies of sufficient magnitude to provide any experimental insight into the behavior of matter at the energy levels that prevailed during this period. Proposed scenarios differ radically. Some examples are the Hartle-Hawking initial state, string landscape, brane inflation, string gas cosmology, and the ekpyrotic universe. Some of these are mutually compatible, while others are not."
-Wikipedia
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/24/2011 6:36:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 6:22:17 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/24/2011 5:02:48 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/24/2011 5:00:34 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/24/2011 4:53:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The only concept of god that makes any logical sense to me is the one where god and creation are the same thing.

then how's it a creation???

It isn't. That is the point.

The universe wasn't created.

Prove it.

I can't prove it, and you can't prove otherwise.

I never claimed to know anything.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/24/2011 6:58:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/23/2011 7:44:04 PM, M.Torres wrote:
At 1/23/2011 7:38:24 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
It is an unanswerable question, yeah.

No theories then?

Didn't realize debaters on a debate site would have such a unanimous opinion. :/

That doesn't really help much then. But oh well.

I believe that the universe has always existed because it simply is the least problematic seeming position, beyond that its difficult to say much.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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1/25/2011 1:23:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/24/2011 9:55:22 AM, innomen wrote:
Is nothing, i mean really nothing even conceivable? I don't mean a void, because that would be something, I mean absolutely nothingness in any and every possible existence, in matter, conception, energy, time, dimension, nothing at all. Can we even wrap our minds around such a concept?

I don't think we can think of an absolute nothingness, in the sense you meant, as the mere thought of it would bring it into existence as something - an object of enquiry.