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Justice

GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/31/2011 7:50:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:27:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
If you think it exists, it is important and why or why not?

Great subject, and I am some what surprised you were one to create it.

Anyway, justice is an abstract objection. It provides us with the means to do something or act upon something with reason. Justice spares guilt or logical thinking in favor of truth. Justice has to be objective or otherwise it is illusive. Justice gives reason why something is the way it is. If I commit a crime like murder, justice would condemn me based on the objective truth that there is a right and a wrong.

In logic, say deductive logic, justice will tie two separate ends together, let me illustrate; say I forgot my house keys, and all day I have been at work, therefore I must have left my keys at work. In this, to say that I have left my keys at work does not justify why I do not have my keys. By saying that, I am relating why I forgot my keys to an unnecessary account, in that, it is also possible that I could have taken my keys to a friends and left them there. Just because I was at work all day, does not mean I left my keys at work. If I knew where I left my keys, that would then justify why I have been locked out. I could then say, "I am locked out because my keys are at my friends." Not because I have been at work all day.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/31/2011 7:52:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justice is an man made construct which was developed in order to maintain societal order, the issue with this construct is that it is subjective hence cannot be thoroughly proved or disproved.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 7:54:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justice is cause and effect, and the chain of reactions that a cause can create.

If I stab your mom in the throat with a knife, she bleeds to death and dies. This is justice.

If it is discovered that I stabbed your mom to death and get sent to jail, that is justice.

If I get away with stabbing your mom to death, justice has still been served.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 7:55:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justice is unavoidable, because god is just.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/31/2011 7:58:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:55:35 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Justice is unavoidable, because god is just.

If that is true, and in light of the fact god no longer talks to man, what prevents one from lying stating that his will is the unquestionable will of god. This type of ideology leads religious leaders to abuse their followers. If anything justice should be based on the most logical of premises and religion should be kept as a separate entity all together.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/31/2011 8:02:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"In this, to say that I have left my keys at work does not justify why I do not have my keys."

Sorry that would justify why I don't have my keys, I was mean to say this;

In this, to say that I have been at work all day does not justify why I do not have my keys.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/31/2011 8:03:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:50:37 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
If you think it exists, it is important and why or why not?

Great subject, and I am some what surprised you were one to create it.

Anyway, justice is an abstract objection. It provides us with the means to do something or act upon something with reason. Justice spares guilt or logical thinking in favor of truth. Justice has to be objective or otherwise it is illusive. Justice gives reason why something is the way it is. If I commit a crime like murder, justice would condemn me based on the objective truth that there is a right and a wrong.

In logic, say deductive logic, justice will tie two separate ends together, let me illustrate; say I forgot my house keys, and all day I have been at work, therefore I must have left my keys at work. In this, to say that I have left my keys at work does not justify why I do not have my keys. By saying that, I am relating why I forgot my keys to an unnecessary account, in that, it is also possible that I could have taken my keys to a friends and left them there. Just because I was at work all day, does not mean I left my keys at work. If I knew where I left my keys, that would then justify why I have been locked out. I could then say, "I am locked out because my keys are at my friends." Not because I have been at work all day.:

What.... the..... f*ck..... are..... you..... talking.... about? This is just pure nonsense. Are you high right now?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 8:04:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:58:58 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:55:35 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Justice is unavoidable, because god is just.

If that is true, and in light of the fact god no longer talks to man, what prevents one from lying stating that his will is the unquestionable will of god. This type of ideology leads religious leaders to abuse their followers. If anything justice should be based on the most logical of premises and religion should be kept as a separate entity all together.

God always talks to man. God is talking to you right now. Everything around you is a word of god.

If a man claims that his will is the will of god, it would only be true if it was allowed to happen.

If it is a man's will to kill 100 babies, and he manages to kill 100 babies, it was god's will. God's will is unavoidable. If his will is to kill 100 babies, and he only makes it to 5 before he dies.. Well...

There is nothing religious about this. It's all very logical if taken metaphorically.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/31/2011 8:05:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
: At 1/31/2011 8:03:08 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:50:37 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
If you think it exists, it is important and why or why not?

Great subject, and I am some what surprised you were one to create it.

Anyway, justice is an abstract objection. It provides us with the means to do something or act upon something with reason. Justice spares guilt or logical thinking in favor of truth. Justice has to be objective or otherwise it is illusive. Justice gives reason why something is the way it is. If I commit a crime like murder, justice would condemn me based on the objective truth that there is a right and a wrong.

In logic, say deductive logic, justice will tie two separate ends together, let me illustrate; say I forgot my house keys, and all day I have been at work, therefore I must have left my keys at work. In this, to say that I have left my keys at work does not justify why I do not have my keys. By saying that, I am relating why I forgot my keys to an unnecessary account, in that, it is also possible that I could have taken my keys to a friends and left them there. Just because I was at work all day, does not mean I left my keys at work. If I knew where I left my keys, that would then justify why I have been locked out. I could then say, "I am locked out because my keys are at my friends." Not because I have been at work all day.:

What.... the..... f*ck..... are..... you..... talking.... about? This is just pure nonsense. Are you high right now?


Insulting, but no I know what I am talking about. What don't you get!?
Grape
Posts: 989
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1/31/2011 9:39:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@ GodSands - I did not understand a thing you said, and I promise it is not because of my lack of reading comprehension. Could you please reiterate?

@ Cosmic Alfonzo - If your notion of justice is indistinguishable from the rules of cause and effect, why not just call it cause and effect and get rid of the idea of justice entirely. If everything that occurs is inherently just than what is the point of justice at all?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/31/2011 9:47:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There isn't. Justice, like anything that falls into the realm of subjectivity... is an absurdity.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/1/2011 12:37:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 9:47:03 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
There isn't. Justice, like anything that falls into the realm of subjectivity... is an absurdity.

Your preferences are an absurdity? You must be a winner with the ladies with that line.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/1/2011 12:46:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 9:47:03 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
There isn't. Justice, like anything that falls into the realm of subjectivity... is an absurdity.

Aye.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/1/2011 1:16:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 12:37:41 AM, Puck wrote:
At 1/31/2011 9:47:03 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
There isn't. Justice, like anything that falls into the realm of subjectivity... is an absurdity.

Your preferences are an absurdity? You must be a winner with the ladies with that line.

Oh, they really love it when I tell them that if you put enough ugly into one spot, there is a strange beauty in it.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/1/2011 9:46:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

Justice is where the victim of a crime receives the most apropriate recompense and/or the perpetrator of that crime receives the most apropriate suffering without the process degenerating into simply vengeance.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/1/2011 9:48:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:27:51 PM, theLwerd wrote:
If you think it exists, it is important and why or why not?

It does not exist objectively, indeed it is a social construct like morality (which I guess it is a part of). As a social construct it is vitally important, if people do not feel they are being treated justly, they have no desire to cooperate.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/1/2011 9:50:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 9:46:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

Justice is where the victim of a crime receives the most apropriate recompense and/or the perpetrator of that crime receives the most 'reciprocal' suffering without the process degenerating into simply vengeance.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/1/2011 9:55:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?:

The abstract concept or compensation for perceived wrongs. It exists in the same way that all other forms of abstract concepts exist. But like all concepts, abstract or otherwise, they don't exist in the same sense as something tangible does.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/1/2011 9:58:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What.... the..... f*ck..... are..... you..... talking.... about? This is just pure nonsense. Are you high right now?

Insulting, but no:

LOL! I was being facetious about you being high... But seriously, it made no sense.

I know what I am talking about.:

I'm glad somebody does ;)

What don't you get!?:

All of it.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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2/1/2011 10:07:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 8:03:08 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
What.... the..... f*ck..... are..... you..... talking.... about? This is just pure nonsense. Are you high right now?

sums up my reaction
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
tigg13
Posts: 302
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2/1/2011 11:12:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justice is a byproduct of symmetrical social bonding. If we perceive that we share food and resources equally (we perceive symmetry in our relationship) then we will trust each other more and our social bonds will strengthen. If our relationship is asymmetrical (I'm always giving and you're always taking) then I'll lose my trust in you an the bonds will weaken.

Since communities with strong social bonds are healthier than those who have weak social bonds, the ability to perceive, and the desire to have, symmetrical relationships are traits that nature selects for. This is why the idea of 'Do unto others etc.' is so widely accepted. (We evolved this way)

Note that, even though symmetry itself is objective in that, something either is symmetrical or it is not, since justice relies on perception, it is still inherently subjective.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/1/2011 3:46:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:58:58 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:

If that is true, and in light of the fact god no longer talks to man, what prevents one from lying stating that his will is the unquestionable will of god. This type of ideology leads religious leaders to abuse their followers. If anything justice should be based on the most logical of premises and religion should be kept as a separate entity all together.

This.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/1/2011 3:50:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

a silly absolutist idea.

there is "Satisfaction", no more.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/1/2011 3:54:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 3:50:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

a silly absolutist idea.

there is "Satisfaction", no more.:

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't think it was so silly if your mother's murderer got away with the crime.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/1/2011 4:01:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 3:54:16 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 3:50:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

a silly absolutist idea.

there is "Satisfaction", no more.:

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't think it was so silly if your mother's murderer got away with the crime.

I would very much want his head so that he wouldn't do further things that I don't like... such as harming other people...

and so bringing about his death would satisfy..
or, having him Completely secluded from everyone forever (at no risk/cost)

upon sober thought.. I don't think I would much care what happens with him so long as he can't further do things I wouldn't like.

unless I ended up taking personal satisfaction in giving him pain... which I don't think i would.

and, either way... it's still about getting satisfaction :p
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
badger
Posts: 11,793
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2/1/2011 4:23:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 4:01:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/1/2011 3:54:16 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 3:50:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/31/2011 7:27:26 PM, theLwerd wrote:
What is it?

a silly absolutist idea.

there is "Satisfaction", no more.:

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't think it was so silly if your mother's murderer got away with the crime.

I would very much want his head so that he wouldn't do further things that I don't like... such as harming other people...

and so bringing about his death would satisfy..
or, having him Completely secluded from everyone forever (at no risk/cost)

upon sober thought.. I don't think I would much care what happens with him so long as he can't further do things I wouldn't like.

unless I ended up taking personal satisfaction in giving him pain... which I don't think i would.

and, either way... it's still about getting satisfaction :p

it's a bit easy sometimes isn't it...
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/1/2011 4:25:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 4:23:29 PM, badger wrote:
it's a bit easy sometimes isn't it...

what's a bit easy sometimes ??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."