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Pure Libertarians support AnCom

Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/17/2011 11:16:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"An early anarchist communist was Joseph Déjacque, the first person to describe himself as "libertarian". Unlike Proudhon, he argued that, "it is not the product of his or her labor that the worker has a right to, but to the satisfaction of his or her needs, whatever may be their nature"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Déjacque was the first to employ the term libertarian in a political sense, in a letter writen in 1857 criticizing Proudhon for an alleged attack on feminism and his support' of individual ownership of the product of labor, and of a market economy..."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"A key difference between libertarian socialism and capitalist libertarianism is that advocates of the former generally believe that one's degree of freedom is affected by one's economic and social status, whereas advocates of the latter focus on freedom of choice. This is sometimes characterized as a desire to maximize "free creativity" in a society in preference to "free enterprise."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Sieben recently remarked that anarcho-capitalism was the pure libertarian position. Looks like he was close but no cigar.
no comment
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 11:34:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Satisfaction of needs simply cannot be described as "freedom." I can satisfy your NEEDS if i stick you in a cell, feed you, give you somewhere to go to the bathroom. (even then you don't actually need those things, you'll die without them. and if you construe needs more broadly, you'll inevitably come up against contradictions.

Ignoratio elenchi, being the first to use a word doesn't mean your claim to it is true if you don't fit the definition.

Free enterprise involves the freedom to create things. Giving away "social and economic status" cannot accurately be described as "creativity."

In essence, none of your arguments actually support the title.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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2/17/2011 12:33:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okay. Maybe some libertarians think that libertarianism includes all sorts of other stuff like infinity medical care and ponies.

But I think they all agree that you shouldn't attack innocent people, or try to appropriate farmer john's crops.

Please dodge the issue of non-aggression more. Its a necessary and sufficient condition for anarcho capitalism.
Things that are so interesting:

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Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/17/2011 1:29:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Not only did Dejacque use the term to mean a libertarian communism, but he coined the term in response to Proudhon, who argued for a more propertarian system, not unlike our Sieben.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/17/2011 1:38:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Anarchist golden mean, liberal and non LIBERTARIAN you want free trade for cotton and the candle, and you are advocating systems protecting man against woman in the movement of human passions, you scream against the barons of capital, and want to rebuild the barons of the male over the female vassal; logician to spectacles, you see the man with the telescope that magnifies objects, and the woman through the glass which decreases; thinker afflicted by myopia, you do know what you distinguish éborgne in the present or in the past, and you can not see what is up and remotely view what the future: you're a cripple!" - DeJacque to Proudhon
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 7:31:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 1:38:15 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"Anarchist golden mean, liberal and non LIBERTARIAN you want free trade for cotton and the candle, and you are advocating systems protecting man against woman in the movement of human passions, you scream against the barons of capital, and want to rebuild the barons of the male over the female vassal; logician to spectacles, you see the man with the telescope that magnifies objects, and the woman through the glass which decreases; thinker afflicted by myopia, you do know what you distinguish éborgne in the present or in the past, and you can not see what is up and remotely view what the future: you're a cripple!" - DeJacque to Proudhon

This Dejacque guy sounds a lot like Freedo. Logician to specatacles? Wtf?

Speak at least somewhat coherently.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/17/2011 7:38:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 7:31:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/17/2011 1:38:15 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"Anarchist golden mean, liberal and non LIBERTARIAN you want free trade for cotton and the candle, and you are advocating systems protecting man against woman in the movement of human passions, you scream against the barons of capital, and want to rebuild the barons of the male over the female vassal; logician to spectacles, you see the man with the telescope that magnifies objects, and the woman through the glass which decreases; thinker afflicted by myopia, you do know what you distinguish éborgne in the present or in the past, and you can not see what is up and remotely view what the future: you're a cripple!" - DeJacque to Proudhon

This Dejacque guy sounds a lot like Freedo. Logician to specatacles? Wtf?

Speak at least somewhat coherently.

you're blinded by an overly narrow view of life which excludes the aesthetic and experiential. you advocate the continued alienation of man. etc etc. don't tell me you're so far gone you've lost the ability to understand metaphor?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 7:50:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 7:38:30 PM, belle wrote:
At 2/17/2011 7:31:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/17/2011 1:38:15 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"Anarchist golden mean, liberal and non LIBERTARIAN you want free trade for cotton and the candle, and you are advocating systems protecting man against woman in the movement of human passions, you scream against the barons of capital, and want to rebuild the barons of the male over the female vassal; logician to spectacles, you see the man with the telescope that magnifies objects, and the woman through the glass which decreases; thinker afflicted by myopia, you do know what you distinguish éborgne in the present or in the past, and you can not see what is up and remotely view what the future: you're a cripple!" - DeJacque to Proudhon

This Dejacque guy sounds a lot like Freedo. Logician to specatacles? Wtf?

Speak at least somewhat coherently.

you're blinded by an overly narrow view of life which excludes the aesthetic and experiential. you advocate the continued alienation of man. etc etc. don't tell me you're so far gone you've lost the ability to understand metaphor?

While analogy has a place in political discussions, deliberately obscure ones do not (and this is an attempt at analogy, not metaphor). They're supposed to clarify an issue. You might see some literary value in this, I don't but I suppose it's possible. Nevertheless, this isn't the Arts or Entertainment forum.

Alienation of man? From what?

Disregard if you're trolling.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 7:51:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Least, I think it's analogy rather than metaphor. The fact that we can't agree is also not a sign that it's good writing, assuming you know the difference.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/17/2011 8:07:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol granted its silly (insofar as i strongly disagree), but i wouldn't say that its deliberately obscure or that its an analogy rather than a metaphor. i also don't appreciate your assumption that i can't tell the difference :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 8:08:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:07:22 PM, belle wrote:
lol granted its silly (insofar as i strongly disagree), but i wouldn't say that its deliberately obscure or that its an analogy rather than a metaphor. i also don't appreciate your assumption that i can't tell the difference :P

Actually, I was assuming for the sake of my post that you can, in nonobscure conditions.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 8:11:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
On the other hand, I don't speak French. These guys were french, I assume their letters to each other were in French. So it could just be the translator being an asshat and in French it's perfectly clear.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/17/2011 8:13:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Note, if you disagree that strongly on whether it's obscure rather than just disagree on deliberate and on whether it's analogy or metaphor, lemme know wtf he's saying. And show your work.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/17/2011 8:19:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
lol you are closed to metaphor!

he's saying that even though you claim to fight for freedom, you're wrong. you fight for men's right to oppress women. you are narrow in your views and miss the big picture by your shortsighted focus on individual freedom. your views will not bring freedom, but tyranny.

granted its open to interpretation, but... its amusing.

also i was saying i stongly disagree with the message, not the obscurity. it is somewhat veiled, in that its meant to appeal to emotions rather than reason alone.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/17/2011 8:19:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The very concept of a "right" is anti-freedom, whether it be labor or needs. AnCom is often associated with ensuring needs, but this isn't necessarily true, it is simply what most AnComs would choose. In actuality, property has been abolished in an AnCom society, which means it's up to the individuals to decide by what method possessions are allocated. This is the furthest ends of Libertarianism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 8:26:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:19:30 PM, belle wrote:
lol you are closed to metaphor!

he's saying that even though you claim to fight for freedom, you're wrong. you fight for men's right to oppress women.
Then Reasoning was inappropriate to quote it.

you are narrow in your views and miss the big picture by your shortsighted focus on individual freedom.
And are therefore not libertarian?

your views will not bring freedom, but tyranny.
So contradiction. :)

Also, that's not showing the work.

The very concept of a "right" is anti-freedom
How the hell are you supposed to be free from anything at all if you can't get people to respect some sort of limit on their behavior toward you?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/17/2011 8:28:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In actuality, property has been abolished in an AnCom society, which means it's up to the individuals to decide by what method possessions are allocated.
Individuals disagree noob.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/17/2011 8:30:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:26:54 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:19:30 PM, belle wrote:
lol you are closed to metaphor!

he's saying that even though you claim to fight for freedom, you're wrong. you fight for men's right to oppress women.
Then Reasoning was inappropriate to quote it.

you are narrow in your views and miss the big picture by your shortsighted focus on individual freedom.
And are therefore not libertarian?

your views will not bring freedom, but tyranny.
So contradiction. :)

Also, that's not showing the work.

The very concept of a "right" is anti-freedom
How the hell are you supposed to be free from anything at all if you can't get people to respect some sort of limit on their behavior toward you?

plz don't imply that what freedo said is what i said :P

also how the fruit do you show work in what amounts to an english class exercise? you want me to quote the bits i'm referring to? i assumed it would be fairly obvious seeing as its a short paragraph...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/17/2011 8:35:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:28:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
In actuality, property has been abolished in an AnCom society, which means it's up to the individuals to decide by what method possessions are allocated.
Individuals disagree noob.

I know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/17/2011 8:38:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/17/2011 8:35:59 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 2/17/2011 8:28:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
In actuality, property has been abolished in an AnCom society, which means it's up to the individuals to decide by what method possessions are allocated.
Individuals disagree noob.

I know.

In the same way markets work without central planning, so would this. It is called chaotic order.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord