Total Posts:16|Showing Posts:1-16
Jump to topic:

Killing a Doctor to Save a Fetus

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 12:51:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
As somewhat of a joke, about three weeks ago I released a slightly updated version of an abortion debate that I did a while back. The resolution for the debate was:

"Doctors who perform first trimester abortions should be prosecuted for murder and thrown into jail." http://www.debate.org...

Now, I didn't expect anyone to take this, and I took it down within a few hours anyway because I was also busy with school. However, it would appear as though there are some people out there who would go much farther than agreeing with the resolution. In particular, one lawmaker from South Dakota put forth legislation that would allow people to kill abortion doctors in certain scenarios. http://www.salon.com...

Rep. Phil Jensen, the sponsor of the bill, made it so that killing an abortion doctor could count as a form of 'justifiable homicide.' Am I the only that sees a problem with this? Our political discourse on this topic has become so balkanized that representatives can actually put forth measures like this and still keep their seat.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 12:59:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't see how killing an abortion doctor would actually save a fetus, unless you killed all of them. It would just be revenge.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 1:02:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think it was more to make a point than a serious suggestion. Like that bill that would have forced all adults to buy a handgun for personal protection. It wasn't a serious suggestion, the idea was to point out how absurd the federal government forcing people to buy insurance was.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 1:05:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 12:59:46 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how killing an abortion doctor would actually save a fetus, unless you killed all of them. It would just be revenge.

its not supposed to save fetuses, its punishment for murder. although it would probably deter at least some doctors from performing abortions.

it does seem extremely alien to hold a fetus as equal to a fully grown person though.... i mean theres some positions i can understand and some that just make me go o.O

for the record though freeman, i think this problem is similar to the issue with peter singer, where he collapses much of mammalian brain function into the same ethical level.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 1:13:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 1:05:40 AM, belle wrote:
it does seem extremely alien to hold a fetus as equal to a fully grown person though.... i mean theres some positions i can understand and some that just make me go o.O

Some state senators are currently pushing to have the constitution redefine personhood as being at conception.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 1:30:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 1:05:40 AM, belle wrote:
At 2/21/2011 12:59:46 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how killing an abortion doctor would actually save a fetus, unless you killed all of them. It would just be revenge.

its not supposed to save fetuses, its punishment for murder. although it would probably deter at least some doctors from performing abortions.

it does seem extremely alien to hold a fetus as equal to a fully grown person though.... i mean theres some positions i can understand and some that just make me go o.O

for the record though freeman, i think this problem is similar to the issue with peter singer, where he collapses much of mammalian brain function into the same ethical level.

Well, he actually goes farther than that. He argues that all animals should be given equal consideration of interests regardless of their species. This does not logically entail that he believes that all species should be treated the same. I ran into this issue a lot with my very confused opponent in my speciesism debate.

I don't think he would say that much of mammalian brain function collapses onto the same ethical level. However, he and I would both affirm that at least some species of non-human primates are persons. And I think there is good evidence coming from neuroscience research on these primates to back up this claim. Evidence indicates that at least some primates are self-conscious.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 1:33:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 1:30:50 AM, Freeman wrote:
At 2/21/2011 1:05:40 AM, belle wrote:
At 2/21/2011 12:59:46 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
I don't see how killing an abortion doctor would actually save a fetus, unless you killed all of them. It would just be revenge.

its not supposed to save fetuses, its punishment for murder. although it would probably deter at least some doctors from performing abortions.

it does seem extremely alien to hold a fetus as equal to a fully grown person though.... i mean theres some positions i can understand and some that just make me go o.O

for the record though freeman, i think this problem is similar to the issue with peter singer, where he collapses much of mammalian brain function into the same ethical level.

Well, he actually goes farther than that. He argues that all animals should be given equal consideration of interests regardless of their species. This does not logically entail that he believes that all species should be treated the same. I ran into this issue a lot with my very confused opponent in my speciesism debate.

I don't think he would say that much of mammalian brain function collapses onto the same ethical level. However, he and I would both affirm that at least some species of non-human primates are persons. And I think there is good evidence coming from neuroscience research on these primates to back up this claim. Evidence indicates that at least some primates are self-conscious.

Come to think of it.... maybe he would.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/21/2011 2:19:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 12:51:48 AM, Freeman wrote:
As somewhat of a joke, about three weeks ago I released a slightly updated version of an abortion debate that I did a while back. The resolution for the debate was:

"Doctors who perform first trimester abortions should be prosecuted for murder and thrown into jail." http://www.debate.org...


Now, I didn't expect anyone to take this, and I took it down within a few hours anyway because I was also busy with school. However, it would appear as though there are some people out there who would go much farther than agreeing with the resolution. In particular, one lawmaker from South Dakota put forth legislation that would allow people to kill abortion doctors in certain scenarios. http://www.salon.com...

Well if an abortion doctor breaks into my house and is threatening me, I would hope I'd be allowed to kill them.

Rep. Phil Jensen, the sponsor of the bill, made it so that killing an abortion doctor could count as a form of 'justifiable homicide.'

See above.

Am I the only that sees a problem with this?

Well is it just for being an abortionist or did they make a move towards violence?

If a mexican man a black woman, and an asian tranny break into my house and try to kill me I should assume the right to kill them all.
Now if their walking down the street not hurting anyone then no killing them should not be allowed.
Same deal with an abortionist that's just minding their own business.

Our political discourse on this topic has become so balkanized that representatives can actually put forth measures like this and still keep their seat.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
blackhawk1331
Posts: 4,932
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 2:19:53 AM, lovelife wrote:
If a mexican man a black woman, and an asian tranny break into my house and try to kill me I should assume the right to kill them all.

First of all, it's a little racist not including whites in that scenario. Second of all, you do have the right to kill them if that were to happen. You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 6:32:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

Depends on the state. Some will allow a lawsuit if the transgressor is injured in non self defense cases. For example, you shoot a robber, said robber may sue.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 6:58:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 2/21/2011 2:19:53 AM, lovelife wrote:
If a mexican man a black woman, and an asian tranny break into my house and try to kill me I should assume the right to kill them all.

First of all, it's a little racist not including whites in that scenario.

That's the entire point.

Second of all, you do have the right to kill them if that were to happen. You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

That is again more of my entire point.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 6:59:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 6:32:38 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

Depends on the state. Some will allow a lawsuit if the transgressor is injured in non self defense cases. For example, you shoot a robber, said robber may sue.

A robber won a lawsuit against my family when he broke into the house and slipped because it was unsafe.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 8:34:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 2/21/2011 2:19:53 AM, lovelife wrote:
If a mexican man a black woman, and an asian tranny break into my house and try to kill me I should assume the right to kill them all.

First of all, it's a little racist not including whites in that scenario. Second of all, you do have the right to kill them if that were to happen. You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

I doubt you would be allowed killing them outright as that would be excessive force then, but sure, you're allowed defending yourself and your property.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 8:44:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 6:59:02 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:32:38 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

Depends on the state. Some will allow a lawsuit if the transgressor is injured in non self defense cases. For example, you shoot a robber, said robber may sue.

A robber won a lawsuit against my family when he broke into the house and slipped because it was unsafe.

Really?!

did you tell the judge that he'd better make sure there's a sure path to his bedside b/c you didn't want to face a potentially hazardous route in if you ever wanted to get their late one night....

Such falls can be dangerous.. what if you happened to slip and fall on the big knife you were (hypothetically) bringing to his bedside??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2011 9:08:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/22/2011 8:44:45 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:59:02 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:32:38 PM, Puck wrote:
At 2/22/2011 6:26:16 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
You're legally allowed to defend your person and property.

Depends on the state. Some will allow a lawsuit if the transgressor is injured in non self defense cases. For example, you shoot a robber, said robber may sue.

A robber won a lawsuit against my family when he broke into the house and slipped because it was unsafe.

Really?!

did you tell the judge that he'd better make sure there's a sure path to his bedside b/c you didn't want to face a potentially hazardous route in if you ever wanted to get their late one night....

Such falls can be dangerous.. what if you happened to slip and fall on the big knife you were (hypothetically) bringing to his bedside??

Stupid laws and decisions are stupid.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave