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were the founders of the united states

Sieben
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2/25/2011 7:39:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Man I saw this post and I thought to myself "f*ck, I am going to sit down and tell this motherf*cker all about the founding father's religious beliefs"

Here http://en.wikipedia.org...
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/25/2011 9:07:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
My impression was that this group was about as atheistic as you could expect given the times. That's based on the assumption that Christianity had quite a stranglehold on people back then, of which I may not be correct.
no comment
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/25/2011 9:24:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/24/2011 9:20:21 PM, flames wrote:
religous?:

Most were theists, many of them were not religious. During those times, outright atheism was a very unpopular position because they did not have the same technology we have today. However, most were deist, which in my opinion, is a precursor to atheism.

We know most assuredly that many, if not most, opposed much of Christianity. This makes sense because a lot of the colonists fled England to flee religious persecution. The Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church brutalized many people during that time. The last thing they wanted was another theocracy.

So to answer your question, no, most were not religious. That is supported by documentation.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/25/2011 9:24:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 9:07:07 AM, Caramel wrote:
My impression was that this group was about as atheistic as you could expect given the times.:

Strongly agreed.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/25/2011 5:06:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to close the eye of reason"
~ Benjamin Franklin

"It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man."
~ Thomas Paine

"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense."
~ Thomas Paine

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
~ Benjamin Franklin

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
~ John Adams

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot"
~ Thomas Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
~ James Madison

"The story of the redemption will not stand examination. That man should redeem himself from the sin of eating an apple by committing a murder on Jesus Christ, is the strangest system of religion ever set up."
~ Thomas Paine

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
~ John Adams

"This would be the best of possible worlds, if there were no religion in it"
~John Adams

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effects of coercion? To make one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the Earth.
~ Thomas Jefferson

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~ Thomas Paine

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! This is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
~Thomas Paine

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
~ Benjamin Franklin

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
~ Thomas Paine

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."
~ Benjamin Franklin

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
~ Benjamin Franklin
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/25/2011 5:07:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You should read "The Moral Minority", if you have the time.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 6:00:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A good portion, if not most of them were.

That said, our government is neutral in matters of religion, as it should be.

Except they should totally tax the sh!t out of churches. Tax them like anyone else I mean, not give them a special tax.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/25/2011 6:07:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed." - Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also." - Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." - John Qunicy Adams

Most of the Founding Fathers were religious in a loose sense. Nearly all of them believed in a creator, what they did not believe in, was the church which had oppressed people and drove them to America, where people could worship as they pleased.

Most of them did believe in the bible, but they believed in a more personal interpretation of the bible, rather then the church's interpretation. This caused them to often speak out against the church and the church's interpretation, but don't let this fool you into thinking that they were speaking out against the religion itself.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:07:55 PM, OreEle wrote:
"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed." - Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religious, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here." - Patrick Henry

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also." - Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians." - John Qunicy Adams


Most of the Founding Fathers were religious in a loose sense. Nearly all of them believed in a creator, what they did not believe in, was the church which had oppressed people and drove them to America, where people could worship as they pleased.

Most of them did believe in the bible, but they believed in a more personal interpretation of the bible, rather then the church's interpretation. This caused them to often speak out against the church and the church's interpretation, but don't let this fool you into thinking that they were speaking out against the religion itself.

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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2/25/2011 6:42:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.

What does that have to do with anything?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/25/2011 6:46:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:42:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.

What does that have to do with anything?

Exactly.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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2/25/2011 6:57:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 5:07:46 PM, annhasle wrote:
You should read "The Moral Minority", if you have the time.
I actually own that book.
I miss the old members.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/25/2011 6:59:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:46:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:42:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.

What does that have to do with anything?

Exactly.

The point is that they were much less religious than the regime they were seeking independence from, and if they had the knowledge we have today, they might not have been Christian at all. Read the first sentence of the first ammendment of the constitution of the United States of America, and you will understand how they felt about the correlation between religion and government.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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2/25/2011 7:13:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:59:56 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:46:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:42:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.

What does that have to do with anything?

Exactly.

The point is that they were much less religious than the regime they were seeking independence from, and if they had the knowledge we have today, they might not have been Christian at all. Read the first sentence of the first ammendment of the constitution of the United States of America, and you will understand how they felt about the correlation between religion and government.

Okay? Again - what was the point of you saying that? The question was whether or not the the founding fathers were religious or not, not whether or not they'd be religious if they had access to modern science.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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2/25/2011 7:15:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:13:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Okay? Again - what was the point of you saying that? The question was whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not, not whether or not they'd be religious if they had access to modern science.

Fix'd
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/25/2011 7:16:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okay? Again - what was the point of you saying that? The question was whether or not the the founding fathers were religious or not, not whether or not they'd be religious if they had access to modern science.:

The answer is divided. Some were, most were not.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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2/25/2011 7:18:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:13:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:59:56 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:46:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:42:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:12:59 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:

They also were not aware of evolution, quantum physics, and many other important scientific discoveries that might change their belief system.

What does that have to do with anything?

Exactly.

The point is that they were much less religious than the regime they were seeking independence from, and if they had the knowledge we have today, they might not have been Christian at all. Read the first sentence of the first ammendment of the constitution of the United States of America, and you will understand how they felt about the correlation between religion and government.

Okay? Again - what was the point of you saying that? The question was whether or not the the founding fathers were religious or not, not whether or not they'd be religious if they had access to modern science.

I already illustrated that they were not religious, and then simply expounded on that by stating that they might have discarded religion altogether, had they known what we know today. Simple as that.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/25/2011 7:23:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:57:57 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 2/25/2011 5:07:46 PM, annhasle wrote:
You should read "The Moral Minority", if you have the time.
I actually own that book.

So do I. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To be honest, I don't see how the question of whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not is relevant to any discussion in the slightest.

Most of them claimed to be part of a religion... But a lot of people claim to be part of a religion without being "religious".

A few, Like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were obviously not religious.

That said, none of this is relevant at all in the slightest. The founding fathers established a secular nation.

Probably because those who were religious had enough faith in what they believed in, and didn't feel the need to make it part of the government. By making the government neutral on the matter of religion, they made the most intelligent decision.

Non-religious are happy, because they won't(in theory) be persecuted by the government.

Religious are happy, because in theory, the government doesn't endorse one religion over their own... Oh yeah, somehow, the government decided that it also means not to tax churches..

...

So yeah, I mean, the only way you could disagree with a secular government is if you are an idiot who thinks that a state sponsored religion doesn't get in the way of freedom.

The founding fathers being religious is irrelevant, and no one cares except for the people who fumble and try to convince people that our country is strictly a Christian nation.

It isn't. It is a humanist nation.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/25/2011 7:24:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 6:07:55 PM, OreEle wrote:
Most of them did believe in the bible, but they believed in a more personal interpretation of the bible, rather then the church's interpretation. This caused them to often speak out against the church and the church's interpretation, but don't let this fool you into thinking that they were speaking out against the religion itself.

http://www.positiveatheism.org...)
President of DDO
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 7:26:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:24:41 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 6:07:55 PM, OreEle wrote:
Most of them did believe in the bible, but they believed in a more personal interpretation of the bible, rather then the church's interpretation. This caused them to often speak out against the church and the church's interpretation, but don't let this fool you into thinking that they were speaking out against the religion itself.

http://www.positiveatheism.org...)

Ms. L, Jefferson isn't the only founding father.

We already established the fact that Jefferson hated god, and probably slit his wrists in his godless anguish.

Oh, and he slept with black people. Who were SLAVES no less. Only a godless heathen would do such a thing, amirite?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/25/2011 7:26:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be honest, I don't see how the question of whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not is relevant to any discussion in the slightest.

Well, if the discussion is based on the question "Is America a Christian nation?", then it would be relevant. If the discussion, like this one, is based on the question, "Were the founding fathers religious?" then it would definitely be relevant. Lol.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
gavin.ogden
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2/25/2011 7:26:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be honest, I don't see how the question of whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not is relevant to any discussion in the slightest.

Most of them claimed to be part of a religion... But a lot of people claim to be part of a religion without being "religious".

A few, Like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were obviously not religious.

That said, none of this is relevant at all in the slightest. The founding fathers established a secular nation.

Probably because those who were religious had enough faith in what they believed in, and didn't feel the need to make it part of the government. By making the government neutral on the matter of religion, they made the most intelligent decision.

Non-religious are happy, because they won't(in theory) be persecuted by the government.

Religious are happy, because in theory, the government doesn't endorse one religion over their own... Oh yeah, somehow, the government decided that it also means not to tax churches..

...

So yeah, I mean, the only way you could disagree with a secular government is if you are an idiot who thinks that a state sponsored religion doesn't get in the way of freedom.


The founding fathers being religious is irrelevant, and no one cares except for the people who fumble and try to convince people that our country is strictly a Christian nation.

It isn't. It is a humanist nation.

Much more eloquently stated.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/25/2011 7:28:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:26:30 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be honest, I don't see how the question of whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not is relevant to any discussion in the slightest.

Well, if the discussion is based on the question "Is America a Christian nation?", then it would be relevant. If the discussion, like this one, is based on the question, "Were the founding fathers religious?" then it would definitely be relevant. Lol.

Once again, annhasle comes in, reads part of my posts and/or fails to comprehend what I am saying.

*slow clap*
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
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2/25/2011 7:32:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:28:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 2/25/2011 7:26:30 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be honest, I don't see how the question of whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not is relevant to any discussion in the slightest.

Well, if the discussion is based on the question "Is America a Christian nation?", then it would be relevant. If the discussion, like this one, is based on the question, "Were the founding fathers religious?" then it would definitely be relevant. Lol.


Once again, annhasle comes in, reads part of my posts and/or fails to comprehend what I am saying.

*slow clap*

1. You said something extremely dumb, and then I pointed it out.

2. The rest of your post had absolutely no substance and was merely stating the obvious... Why would I response to that? Lol.

3. Every time we chat, you call me braindead and completely miss my points. So it's rather pointless. I just chose to focus on your first statement since it was so blatantly stupid.

Moving on...
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/25/2011 7:36:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The founding fathers being religious is irrelevant, and no one cares except for the people who fumble and try to convince people that our country is strictly a Christian nation.

It isn't. It is a humanist nation.

It's right there at the bottom, toots.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
annhasle
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2/25/2011 7:47:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/25/2011 7:36:26 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 2/25/2011 7:23:18 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The founding fathers being religious is irrelevant, and no one cares except for the people who fumble and try to convince people that our country is strictly a Christian nation.

It isn't. It is a humanist nation.


It's right there at the bottom, toots.

Lol, once again... Wow, you're slow.

You stating, "I don't see how that is relevant" is extremely dumb for more than one reason but this one should suffice:

You responded to the question at the end but started off by saying it was irrelevant. Lolwut? Here, let me explain: Your first part of the statement is that the religiousness or lack of religiousness of the founding fathers is irrelevant to the discussion but then, at the end, say America is not in fact a Christian nation and is instead a humanist nation. Well, that is actually quite pertinent to the discussion don't ya think? If it is not a Christian nation, and was not founded upon religious principles, then many would call into question the spirituality of the founding fathers or their conviction. See how that is actually relevant? And since it is relevant, your statement makes me laugh. A lot.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/25/2011 7:55:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Look at how annhasle, in her limitless false pride tries to save face once again.

She just likes to fight.

If you want to mosh, just say so.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp