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Being Moderate in Politics: The Way to Win?

Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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3/2/2011 7:57:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Greetings everyone!

I would like to take this moment to talk about moderation in politics. Do you folks think it is the key to winning? I certainly think so. One of the problems that I see is that there isn't any news network that is favored towards Independents or Moderates. Fox News for the conservatives and MSNBC for the liberals. CNN I personally think is if anything getting close to being for moderates, but still is primarily a liberal news station. The majority of Americans are "flip-floppers" anyway. And I don't mean being moderate in going 50%/50% down the issues and being right smack in between. I mean taking more moderate stances on every single issue. (With some exceptions to the more serious ones)

Then I think that we would get along a whole lot better. Not to mention achieving a lot more as well. If only there were more people like George Washington in the government.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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3/2/2011 9:09:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Our country was founded on compromise.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2011 10:04:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Is it a key to winning? Sure, when you have the right conditions. But that's not always, or even most of the time. Politics is not as simple as campaigning on one side of the spectrum or not.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,313
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3/2/2011 10:10:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If politicians are always moderate and compromising, it is unlikely anything will get done. Business as usual? People get fed up with that kind of moderate politics after so long.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2011 10:14:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:10:29 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
If politicians are always moderate and compromising, it is unlikely anything will get done. Business as usual? People get fed up with that kind of moderate politics after so long.

I disagree. More things are likely actually get done under an atmosphere of compromise and moderation, than they are under a system of stubbornness and extremism. If two sides can't meet together under circumstances favourable to both sides, then you'll either end up with a stalemate, or you'll end up with violence.

And people don't tire of moderation and compromise, unless their original intent was against the mushy middle - what they tire of is the ineptitude of politicians to get over their own interests to work in favour of those they represent. That's borne out of any system, mind you.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,313
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3/2/2011 10:23:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:14:46 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2011 10:10:29 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
If politicians are always moderate and compromising, it is unlikely anything will get done. Business as usual? People get fed up with that kind of moderate politics after so long.

I disagree. More things are likely actually get done under an atmosphere of compromise and moderation, than they are under a system of stubbornness and extremism. If two sides can't meet together under circumstances favourable to both sides, then you'll either end up with a stalemate, or you'll end up with violence.

And people don't tire of moderation and compromise, unless their original intent was against the mushy middle - what they tire of is the ineptitude of politicians to get over their own interests to work in favour of those they represent. That's borne out of any system, mind you.

I strongly disagree with this. Politicians that are so moderate that they could be essentially seen as "one party" have absolutely no incentive to tackle the big issues on hard economic choices or social reforms. When there really is noone to debate and no one to present changes, it is extremely easy to do "business as usual".

"Let's compromise on raising our salaries, extend benefits, extend the debt ceiling, and let's call it a day!... golf Senator? Why yes! Of course we agree!"
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 10:36:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think there may be a misconception that you must have a moderate ideology in order to exhibit the behavior of compromise. I believe there have been many times when compromise was reached by two parties that were extremely opposite on ideology.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2011 10:39:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:23:38 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
I strongly disagree with this. Politicians that are so moderate that they could be essentially seen as "one party" have absolutely no incentive to tackle the big issues on hard economic choices or social reforms. When there really is noone to debate and no one to present changes, it is extremely easy to do "business as usual".

That's not the fault of the politicians - that's how both the system, and the people, work. Look at any strong democracy in the world and you'll see that the main parties, the ones that form a government, really have little difference between them. Why? Because that is what appeals to voters - they like certain ideas, and these parties in their own self-interest attempt to pursue them.

Now, I obviously don't deny that people can get tired of mainstream politics, but only for a time. It's no coincidence that every party that ends up winning elections or being given power tones themselves down in time. Even the GOP, who campaigned horribly to the right during the 2010 elections, are more moderate than was expected, minus certain Tea Partiers - but even then, people like Scott Brown, Marco Rubio, even Rand Paul, have toned themselves down. But only slightly for the last one.

That's the cycle of democratic politics. And to point, even the mainstream parties that are moderate in scope will usually end up subverting any frustrations into their own new campaign theme - again, like the Republicans. The most successful parties in democratic nations, like the UK Conservatives, or the French Gaullists, and up until recently Fianna Fail in Ireland, have all shifted themselves from one side or another to capture the public's frustrations, fold it into their more moderate outlook, and on their merry way they go.

"Let's compromise on raising our salaries, extend benefits, extend the debt ceiling, and let's call it a day!... golf Senator? Why yes! Of course we agree!"

Cynicism does you no good. Not all politicians are like this.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,313
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3/2/2011 10:45:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If the Democrats were not so moderate, a meaningful health care bill would have been presented, and not that thousands of pages of moderate crap.
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 10:51:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Perhaps it is best to have a moderate stance when times are good for the country to appeal to the status quo voters, but when times are bad, people demand changes, and moderate policies just don't sell well then.
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/2/2011 10:52:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If a moderate is someone who likes things the way they are, wouldn't that make them conservative?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 10:54:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:52:02 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If a moderate is someone who likes things the way they are, wouldn't that make them conservative?

I think from what I understand, a conservative is for tearing down government power, not status quo. I could be wrong as I am not a conservative.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 10:57:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:52:02 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If a moderate is someone who likes things the way they are, wouldn't that make them conservative?

there are two different types of conservative. Politically conservative and actually conservative. Equivocal differences.

Obviously, if we have a string of socialist presidents, you woun't call the next socialist president a conservative president.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 10:58:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:45:12 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
If the Democrats were not so moderate, a meaningful health care bill would have been presented, and not that thousands of pages of moderate crap.

It wasn't "moderate" crap, it was "sell-out" crap.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 11:00:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:58:33 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 10:45:12 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
If the Democrats were not so moderate, a meaningful health care bill would have been presented, and not that thousands of pages of moderate crap.

It wasn't "moderate" crap, it was "sell-out" crap.

People sell-out when there is no fight left in them. Evil thrives when good people do nothing.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2011 11:02:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is no easy way to distinguish the two, because supporting the status quo is technically a conservative position. But this was back when it was conservatives versus radicals and reformers, the latter group which obviously fought against the status quo. That's why technically you can have a conservative socialist politician, so long as that socialist politician is for preserving the status quo of the current system. Think of it as the old Soviet guard that fought against Gorbachev - technically they were conservative communists, while Gorbachev was a reformer.

In modern parlance, however, conservatism usually espouses the idea of the status quo, or the idea that you ascribe to traditional values, so long as you think those traditions are neoliberal or libertarian in nature, as many US conservatives do.
Volkov
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3/2/2011 11:05:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:00:56 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
People sell-out when there is no fight left in them. Evil thrives when good people do nothing.

That's not true. People sell-out when they know they have no way of winning without drawing out a fight to the point where anything you wanted to accomplish in the first place becomes irrelevant as time has gone by. The healthcare settlement with the Blue Dog Dems was made because the benefits of doing the deal outweight the risks of sticking to the original plan. To this day, I've yet to see something that points to the opposite conclusion. There was simply no way to pass the bill as written at the time with the situation as it was. It really isn't better to fight and die on principle, than it is to make peace with a compromise.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/2/2011 11:12:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Was it John Adams who said in politics the middle way is none at all. I tend to agree with that statement, conservatives, ideally, are for shrinking the government while progressives are for expanding it. The compromise to that would be nothing happening, yet for the past decade at least the compromise has been to only increase government size in smaller increments. The compromise between sides has been expanding programs each side likes. I blame this expansion on the conservatives not truly being conservative.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
CosmicAlfonzo
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3/2/2011 11:13:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I still make the assertion that politics is the entertainment branch of industry.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Volkov
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3/2/2011 11:15:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:10:37 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Your apologies won't save them when people demand real change.

As it shouldn't. But if that's the people's choice, that's the people's choice - that's democracy. It just has the unfortunately side effect of throwing away that whole "change" mantra back into mainstream politics. Even when voters turf politicians that have clearly failed their mandate, like Fianna Fail in Ireland, they only ended up voting for the exact same strain of politics in their opposition, Fine Gael and Labour, with the hopes that a different brand can save the day. Politics in democratic countries itself around a mainstream line more often than not, until you get polarization like you have in most of the US, where such extremism ends up doing the exact same thing you accuse moderation of doing - stalling governance, change, etc.
lewis20
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3/2/2011 11:17:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:13:06 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I still make the assertion that politics is the entertainment branch of industry.

Ya but if you don't do politics, politics will do you
though I forget who to give that quote credit to
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
PARADIGM_L0ST
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3/2/2011 11:17:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 10:52:02 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If a moderate is someone who likes things the way they are, wouldn't that make them conservative?:

A moderate is someone who does not specifically align with any political ideology. On any given day, one could side with a Republican or a Democrat on any given issue.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,313
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3/2/2011 11:18:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:15:17 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:10:37 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
Your apologies won't save them when people demand real change.

As it shouldn't. But if that's the people's choice, that's the people's choice - that's democracy. It just has the unfortunately side effect of throwing away that whole "change" mantra back into mainstream politics. Even when voters turf politicians that have clearly failed their mandate, like Fianna Fail in Ireland, they only ended up voting for the exact same strain of politics in their opposition, Fine Gael and Labour, with the hopes that a different brand can save the day. Politics in democratic countries itself around a mainstream line more often than not, until you get polarization like you have in most of the US, where such extremism ends up doing the exact same thing you accuse moderation of doing - stalling governance, change, etc.

That moderate crap of a healthcare bill managed to tick off not just liberals, but republicans as well. For Christ's sake, they had a majority and blew it badly on their own middle of the road ideals. These are not the FDR democrats.
Volkov
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3/2/2011 11:24:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:18:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
That moderate crap of a healthcare bill managed to tick off not just liberals, but republicans as well. For Christ's sake, they had a majority and blew it badly on their own middle of the road ideals. These are not the FDR democrats.

Of course they're not FDR Democrats - the party has changed a lot since the 1940's. It's moved to the centre, or at the very least large sections of it did, namely New Democrats and Blue Dogs. But you also have to realize that they couldn't have passed anything else. If you don't work within the bounds you've given, you're not going to work at all. That's just plain reality. And remember, these are the people that voters put in Congress.
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/2/2011 11:30:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Moderation? Winning an election perhaps, but also winning nothin' at all... nothin' at all... nothin' at all....
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Greyparrot
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3/2/2011 11:31:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:24:52 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:18:21 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
That moderate crap of a healthcare bill managed to tick off not just liberals, but republicans as well. For Christ's sake, they had a majority and blew it badly on their own middle of the road ideals. These are not the FDR democrats.

Of course they're not FDR Democrats - the party has changed a lot since the 1940's. It's moved to the centre, or at the very least large sections of it did, namely New Democrats and Blue Dogs. But you also have to realize that they couldn't have passed anything else. If you don't work within the bounds you've given, you're not going to work at all. That's just plain reality. And remember, these are the people that voters put in Congress.

All that I am saying is to illustrate the original point of this thread that being moderate in ideology can have disastrous effects at the voting booth. It's not always the best policy, you need to gauge how much change the voters demand.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 11:35:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:12:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
Was it John Adams who said in politics the middle way is none at all. I tend to agree with that statement, conservatives, ideally, are for shrinking the government while progressives are for expanding it. The compromise to that would be nothing happening, yet for the past decade at least the compromise has been to only increase government size in smaller increments. The compromise between sides has been expanding programs each side likes. I blame this expansion on the conservatives not truly being conservative.

A good comprimise would be to grow some aspects and shrink others.

For example, the $200 million that the US spent (in 1 year) on profilers at US airports who did not make a single arrest (I could get you the same results for half that price, lol), then the program had the nerve to ask for a 10% increase to its budget.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/2/2011 11:37:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:17:25 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 3/2/2011 10:52:02 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
If a moderate is someone who likes things the way they are, wouldn't that make them conservative?:

A moderate is someone who does not specifically align with any political ideology. On any given day, one could side with a Republican or a Democrat on any given issue.

That would make me a moderate, lol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/2/2011 11:56:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 3/2/2011 11:35:10 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 3/2/2011 11:12:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
Was it John Adams who said in politics the middle way is none at all. I tend to agree with that statement, conservatives, ideally, are for shrinking the government while progressives are for expanding it. The compromise to that would be nothing happening, yet for the past decade at least the compromise has been to only increase government size in smaller increments. The compromise between sides has been expanding programs each side likes. I blame this expansion on the conservatives not truly being conservative.

A good comprimise would be to grow some aspects and shrink others.

For example, the $200 million that the US spent (in 1 year) on profilers at US airports who did not make a single arrest (I could get you the same results for half that price, lol), then the program had the nerve to ask for a 10% increase to its budget.

Or the millions they spent on full body scanners bought from Rapiscan Systems a client of the Chertoff Group. Which is owned by Michael Chertoff who has campaigned on behalf of the scanners using his credentials as former secretary of homeland security.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler