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Water boarding

phantom
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4/5/2011 10:53:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just interested in seeing every ones views on water boarding.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm for or against water boarding.
I don't really view it as a form of torture. Marines have or had to go through water boarding for training. It does nothing to hurt the person. Just gives them the impression that they are drowning, if I am correct. I'd like to do it just to see what its like.
The strongest argument to keep water boarding would probably be it saves lives.
But on the other hand torture also saves lives.

Also many people view it as torture and should we use it if it isn't widely excepted as not a form of torture. it also hurts America's image as a torture free nation.

As you can see I'm pretty undecided. I just want to here other peoples views on it.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/5/2011 11:02:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 10:53:49 AM, phantom wrote:
Just interested in seeing every ones views on water boarding.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm for or against water boarding.
I don't really view it as a form of torture. Marines have or had to go through water boarding for training. It does nothing to hurt the person. Just gives them the impression that they are drowning, if I am correct. I'd like to do it just to see what its like.
The strongest argument to keep water boarding would probably be it saves lives.
But on the other hand torture also saves lives.

Also many people view it as torture and should we use it if it isn't widely excepted as not a form of torture. it also hurts America's image as a torture free nation.

As you can see I'm pretty undecided. I just want to here other peoples views on it.

The main arguement against it, is that torture is not effective. But that really depends on who you ask and it also depends on how well the right torture is matched with the right person.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 11:06:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am in full support of Dirty Harry.

the only problem is if you grant such powers they can be used in ways I wouldn't support them.

That's why I'd say have it illegal.. and then they'll work ways around the law, or bury in Classifiedness, for all the cases where it's Mucho Importante.

but Dirty Harry's a good guy.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/5/2011 1:23:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://findarticles.com...

http://thunderpigblog.blogspot.com...

http://blip.tv...

*change information status for water boarding to pro*
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/5/2011 1:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm down
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
PervRat
Posts: 963
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4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Psychological torture is still torture, and it is false to claim there is no permanent damage. There is a significant number of recruits who break during basic training ... in my training company of 90 recruits when I was in the U.S. Navy, 5 committed suicide and I came close to being 6th. A lot of recruits are discharged for mental health problems, and I'd wager most of those developed as a result of the duress placed on recruits during training. Stating there is no damage at all from psychological torture and stress is a falsehood. Torturing someone you think might be connected to Anti-American terrorism is, in fact, a good way to create anti-American hatred to the point a moral person might lose their inhibitions against committing terrorism.

Waterboarding gave us the "slam dunk" Saddam-has-nukes intel ... setting aside the immorality and ill ethics, it has less than zero value as an intelligence tool, since if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

Torture itself is a form of terrorism ... you do not need to cause a single direct death with an act to commit terrorism, merely use terror -- fear -- to attempt to impose your will. You cannot win a 'war' against 'terrorism' by committing terrorist acts yourself.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/5/2011 2:28:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
Psychological torture is still torture, and it is false to claim there is no permanent damage. There is a significant number of recruits who break during basic training ... in my training company of 90 recruits when I was in the U.S. Navy, 5 committed suicide and I came close to being 6th. A lot of recruits are discharged for mental health problems, and I'd wager most of those developed as a result of the duress placed on recruits during training. Stating there is no damage at all from psychological torture and stress is a falsehood. Torturing someone you think might be connected to Anti-American terrorism is, in fact, a good way to create anti-American hatred to the point a moral person might lose their inhibitions against committing terrorism.

Waterboarding gave us the "slam dunk" Saddam-has-nukes intel ... setting aside the immorality and ill ethics, it has less than zero value as an intelligence tool, since if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

Torture itself is a form of terrorism ... you do not need to cause a single direct death with an act to commit terrorism, merely use terror -- fear -- to attempt to impose your will. You cannot win a 'war' against 'terrorism' by committing terrorist acts yourself.

Shut it bleeding heart liberal, water board away.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 3:49:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
Waterboarding gave us the "slam dunk" Saddam-has-nukes intel ...

I thought that was a lying iraqi engineer who wanted to be important?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 3:52:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

what if you have them.. torture them to figure out where the kidnapped little girl is...

then, if they tell you a wrong place.. you Rinse, and Repeat.

wouldn't they maybe give in and tell?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 3:53:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 3:52:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

what if you have them.. torture them to figure out where the kidnapped little girl is...

then, if they tell you a wrong place.. you Rinse, and Repeat.

wouldn't they maybe give in and tell?

assuming they're guilty of course.. Which, in Dirty Harry at least, is quite clear.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/5/2011 4:06:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 3:49:41 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
Waterboarding gave us the "slam dunk" Saddam-has-nukes intel ...

I thought that was a lying iraqi engineer who wanted to be important?

I wasn't ever aware of a "Saddam-has-nukes" thing, I always heard it was a "saddam-is-trying-to-get-yellowcake"
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/5/2011 4:09:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
typically, with any form of interrogation (whether it is torture or not), you have some info that you already know (that the suspect doesn't know that you know), and some that you don't know. And you can tell if the person is lying based on how they answer for questions you already know the answer to. When you catch them lying, you grill them for it, once you find that they are no longer lying (again, based on info that you already know), you then proceed to info that you don't know.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 4:14:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 4:09:35 PM, OreEle wrote:
typically, with any form of interrogation (whether it is torture or not), you have some info that you already know (that the suspect doesn't know that you know), and some that you don't know. And you can tell if the person is lying based on how they answer for questions you already know the answer to. When you catch them lying, you grill them for it, once you find that they are no longer lying (again, based on info that you already know), you then proceed to info that you don't know.

yep.. Orele tortures people in his spare time..
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/5/2011 4:15:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 4:14:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/5/2011 4:09:35 PM, OreEle wrote:
typically, with any form of interrogation (whether it is torture or not), you have some info that you already know (that the suspect doesn't know that you know), and some that you don't know. And you can tell if the person is lying based on how they answer for questions you already know the answer to. When you catch them lying, you grill them for it, once you find that they are no longer lying (again, based on info that you already know), you then proceed to info that you don't know.

yep.. Orele tortures people in his spare time..

Would that really suprise anyone here?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Extremely-Far-Right
Posts: 248
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4/5/2011 4:53:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 2:28:28 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
Psychological torture is still torture, and it is false to claim there is no permanent damage. There is a significant number of recruits who break during basic training ... in my training company of 90 recruits when I was in the U.S. Navy, 5 committed suicide and I came close to being 6th. A lot of recruits are discharged for mental health problems, and I'd wager most of those developed as a result of the duress placed on recruits during training. Stating there is no damage at all from psychological torture and stress is a falsehood. Torturing someone you think might be connected to Anti-American terrorism is, in fact, a good way to create anti-American hatred to the point a moral person might lose their inhibitions against committing terrorism.

Waterboarding gave us the "slam dunk" Saddam-has-nukes intel ... setting aside the immorality and ill ethics, it has less than zero value as an intelligence tool, since if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

Torture itself is a form of terrorism ... you do not need to cause a single direct death with an act to commit terrorism, merely use terror -- fear -- to attempt to impose your will. You cannot win a 'war' against 'terrorism' by committing terrorist acts yourself.

Shut it bleeding heart liberal, water board away.

LOL!
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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4/5/2011 5:14:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It is torture, plain and simple, and I would like to water board you to show you just that. We have this little thing called the Bill of Rights which is designed to protect people from cruel and unusual punishment. If waterboarding isn't cruel and unusual, then what does qualify?

Secondly, torture, of any kind, is largely ineffective as it more often provides false information and generally does not extract useful intelligence. People will say just about anything to make the pain or terror stop.

http://www.newsweek.com...
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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4/5/2011 5:22:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 3:52:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

what if you have them.. torture them to figure out where the kidnapped little girl is...

then, if they tell you a wrong place.. you Rinse, and Repeat.

wouldn't they maybe give in and tell?:

And what if they honestly don't know, but the interrogator assumes he's just holding out? You think everyone in Al Qaeda is privy to details concerning major operations?

So then they just keep upping the ante, torturing someone for no good reason. Eventually they're gonna just start making sh*t up to get some kind of reprieve from the agony.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/5/2011 5:28:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If they don't know the information. They'll give other valuable information, just to show them that they don't know. They know it will be more likely that the interrogators believe they don't know they requested information if they give them other valuable information then if they just lie.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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4/5/2011 5:32:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 5:14:05 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
It is torture, plain and simple, and I would like to water board you to show you just that. We have this little thing called the Bill of Rights which is designed to protect people from cruel and unusual punishment. If waterboarding isn't cruel and unusual, then what does qualify?

"cruel and unusual" is extremely subjective. Some people think a drug cocktail which allows the person to drift peacefully into death is "cruel and unusual."

I think a bullet to the back of the head is a more cost effective means of reaching the same result.


Secondly, torture, of any kind, is largely ineffective as it more often provides false information and generally does not extract useful intelligence. People will say just about anything to make the pain or terror stop.

Not if the torturer has any idea about what they are doing.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/5/2011 8:06:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lets just stick with Extraordinary Rendition, lib politicians never seem(ed) to have a problem with that.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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4/5/2011 8:57:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 5:14:05 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
It is torture, plain and simple, and I would like to water board you to show you just that. We have this little thing called the Bill of Rights which is designed to protect people from cruel and unusual punishment. If waterboarding isn't cruel and unusual, then what does qualify?

Secondly, torture, of any kind, is largely ineffective as it more often provides false information and generally does not extract useful intelligence. People will say just about anything to make the pain or terror stop.

http://www.newsweek.com...

This.

And, don't forget that US torture programs harm out international image, along with acting as a wonderful recruiting tool for Terrorist organizations.
TheAtheistAllegiance
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4/5/2011 9:01:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 8:06:52 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Lets just stick with Extraordinary Rendition, lib politicians never seem(ed) to have a problem with that.

Actually, Obama himself shut down some of the CIA black-sites where Extraordinary Rendition took place. And, I'm sure Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean look very favorably upon the act. It's actually the Conservative politicians who actively promote such egregious tactics of interrogation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
lewis20
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4/5/2011 9:08:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 9:01:20 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 4/5/2011 8:06:52 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Lets just stick with Extraordinary Rendition, lib politicians never seem(ed) to have a problem with that.

Actually, Obama himself shut down some of the CIA black-sites where Extraordinary Rendition took place. And, I'm sure Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean look very favorably upon the act. It's actually the Conservative politicians who actively promote such egregious tactics of interrogation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Actually Obama maintained the policy which was begun under Clinton.
http://articles.latimes.com...
Also I never said Neo-Cons didn't enjoy it too did I?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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4/5/2011 9:28:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 9:08:22 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/5/2011 9:01:20 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Actually, Obama himself shut down some of the CIA black-sites where Extraordinary Rendition took place. And, I'm sure Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean look very favorably upon the act. It's actually the Conservative politicians who actively promote such egregious tactics of interrogation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Actually Obama maintained the policy which was begun under Clinton.
http://articles.latimes.com...
Also I never said Neo-Cons didn't enjoy it too did I?

I stated that Obama closed down some of the black-sites -- not that he ended Extraordinary Rendition. Also, you stated that Liberal politicians don't really have a problem with that, which (likely) isn't necessarily true.
lewis20
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4/5/2011 9:33:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 9:28:04 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 4/5/2011 9:08:22 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 4/5/2011 9:01:20 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Actually, Obama himself shut down some of the CIA black-sites where Extraordinary Rendition took place. And, I'm sure Dennis Kucinich and Howard Dean look very favorably upon the act. It's actually the Conservative politicians who actively promote such egregious tactics of interrogation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

Actually Obama maintained the policy which was begun under Clinton.
http://articles.latimes.com...
Also I never said Neo-Cons didn't enjoy it too did I?

I stated that Obama closed down some of the black-sites -- not that he ended Extraordinary Rendition. Also, you stated that Liberal politicians don't really have a problem with that, which (likely) isn't necessarily true.

Well whats the point in shutting down some of the sites, we will only allow 5 countries to torture our prisoners, not 7 like before? He did nothing towards ending rendition, he specifically extended it.
Can't say he's against it.
You're right though, I'm just assuming libs fall in line with the last two presidents they got elected.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/5/2011 10:12:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 5:22:00 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 4/5/2011 3:52:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/5/2011 2:16:27 PM, PervRat wrote:
if you torture someone unless they tell you what you want to hear, they will tell you what they believe you want to hear no matter what to stop the torture.

what if you have them.. torture them to figure out where the kidnapped little girl is...

then, if they tell you a wrong place.. you Rinse, and Repeat.

wouldn't they maybe give in and tell?:

And what if they honestly don't know, but the interrogator assumes he's just holding out? You think everyone in Al Qaeda is privy to details concerning major operations?

So then they just keep upping the ante, torturing someone for no good reason. Eventually they're gonna just start making sh*t up to get some kind of reprieve from the agony.

I never talked about Al qaeda... I was addressing his saying that torture doesn't work.

Also.. I suggested it be illegal..
and that if it were illegal... Then people doing investigations would be Very particular about Who they torture.. only choosing to do it if it seems like it's very important, would work, and be fruitful..

Like even if Dirty Harry was a bit more savvy in The Law.. he still might torture the prick for info, and just try to be quiet about it.

it being against the law would just be an incentive to be frugal with that kind of method.. and only use it when he Really feels like he's gotta.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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4/5/2011 10:38:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/5/2011 10:53:49 AM, phantom wrote:
Just interested in seeing every ones views on water boarding.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm for or against water boarding.
I don't really view it as a form of torture. Marines have or had to go through water boarding for training. It does nothing to hurt the person. Just gives them the impression that they are drowning, if I am correct. I'd like to do it just to see what its like.
The strongest argument to keep water boarding would probably be it saves lives.
But on the other hand torture also saves lives.

Also many people view it as torture and should we use it if it isn't widely excepted as not a form of torture. it also hurts America's image as a torture free nation.

As you can see I'm pretty undecided. I just want to here other peoples views on it.

It is torture. That is all you have to know about it.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,337
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4/5/2011 10:43:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Any form of extortion is torture.
Threatening to launch tomahawks at people is torture.
Oh wait...

Thank the lord we do not waterboard, that would be bad for our image, we have to look good.