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America should build a Border Wall.

JustinChains
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4/15/2011 8:50:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
t is in my firm opinion that America should build a Border Wall on the borders of Mexico and on the borders of Canada.

My reasons for this wall are as follows...

[1]

This will create jobs... Jobs that are desperately needed in America right now.

Here are some of the ways it would create jobs...

- Through the construction phase of the border wall. This will create work for all the related businesses in the construction of this project.

- Through the construction phase of all the buildings for maintenance, faculty, utilities, and storage needed once this project would be completed.

- Through the construction of all the roads that will need to be built in order to travel to and from all areas of the border wall.

- Through the demand for faculty, border guards, maintenance crew, and any other personnel that would be needed in operating the border wall and adjoining facilities.

[2]

Having this border wall would greatly diminish the success of drugs, weapons, illegal immigrants, and anything else that America does not want coming across it's borders.

[3]

Because the number of illegal immigrants that come across the border will be under control, a couple of beneficial things will happen to America.

- Due to the lack of cheap labor, wages will rise and competition between small businesses in the labor trades will become easier.

- Due to the rise in wages and easier competitive market, businesses and people will earn and spend more money.

- Due to businesses and people spending more money, demand grows.

- Due to demand growing, businesses will need to produce more supply in order to meet the demand.

- Due to businesses needing to fill more demand, they will become more productive, make more money, and need more employees.

- Due to businesses becoming more productive, making more money, and needing more employees, job positions are created and filled by unemployed citizens.

- Due to these unemployed citizens earnings new income, they contribute to the pool of taxes and stimulate the economy.

- Due to the economy being stimulated, all of the above continue to happen.

All of these scenarios I have painted are of great benefit to America and I can not think of a single reason on how this border wall could have a negative effect on our Nation's image or health.

If you feel that you can give me one...

Then thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing your perspective.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/15/2011 9:17:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
By your reasoning we should ban labor by everyone except one four people, two of whom owns a business. It has the same qualitative effect as banning immigration, the difference is quantity.

Since this idea is obviously stupid, your economic hypothesis is stupid, QED. Labor is a valuable thing. More of it is good.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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4/15/2011 10:04:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Whatever happened to the days when unemployment was fought by building ridiculously large sh!t for no reason?

We need to build the biggest pyramid ever. A pyramid the size of Kansas, located in Kansas. Fvck Kansas!

Look at all these mountains we have in this country, it's time to put them to good use!
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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4/15/2011 10:09:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 9:17:38 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
By your reasoning we should ban labor by everyone except one four people, two of whom owns a business. It has the same qualitative effect as banning immigration, the difference is quantity.

Since this idea is obviously stupid, your economic hypothesis is stupid, QED. Labor is a valuable thing. More of it is good.

If you want a Border fence to be symbolic of our stance on secure borders for security reasons, I can agree with that. The loss of cheap labor does not benefit America economically, see slavery, South.
Higher wages are offset by higher priced or a shortage of goods. There is no guarantee that these slots will be filled by Americans. If you want to build roads with Govt money, start where Americans are productive, such as industrial cities.
JustinChains
Posts: 40
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4/16/2011 2:21:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that taking away good labor jobs from tax paying Americans and giving them to cheap waged illegal immigrants is a good thing for our country, then you have no America in your heart.

We don't live in the era of slaves. The only people that make more money off of cheap labor is the people at the top of the food chain. But the other 98% of the American population is either at middle class or trying to become middle class. Working for poverty wages just brings the average quality of life down. The fact that a person would even defend poverty wages and illegal immigrant migration, would give me great suspicion in that person's motives for that defense.

It is unintelligent to not have any nations borders securely protected. This fact has been known for thousands of years.

The fact of the matter is, whether it's for stopping immigration or anything else, America should have the choice in what or who comes across those borders. To not have this security is a grave error and will only result in problems for our nation.

It does not matter if you like my personal listed reasons or not. Take away my argument on wages and my topic still stands alone without defeat.

I would still like to hear an intelligent reason on why or how this Border wall would be bad for America.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/16/2011 3:48:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 2:21:22 PM, JustinChains wrote:
I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that taking away good labor jobs from tax paying Americans and giving them to cheap waged illegal immigrants
Jobs are not a gift.

is a good thing for our country, then you have no America in your heart.
I'm sorry, if you're a goddamn nationalist socialist, (which you are), you have no America in your brain. America was founded on FREEDOM.


We don't live in the era of slaves.
We live in a mixed economy.

The only people that make more money off of cheap labor is the people at the top of the food chain.
Bare assertion

It is unintelligent to not have any nations borders securely protected.
Bare assertion.

This fact has been known for thousands of years.
Appeal to tradition.


The fact of the matter is, whether it's for stopping immigration or anything else, America should have the choice in what or who comes across those borders.
America is not a person. No, the majority should not have the choice to stop individuals from coming across, such collectivism is UNAMERICAN among other things.

Take away my argument on wages and my topic still stands alone without defeat.
False, you haven't made an argument, just a series of fallacies.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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4/16/2011 4:01:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why are people that leave their homes to choose to live in America less American than people who just happened to have been born here?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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4/16/2011 4:17:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also, if these jobs are not immediately replaced, and you assume no one goes out of business, GDP is absolutely certain to take a hit.
How is that good for the Economy?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/16/2011 4:17:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In a perfectly libertarian society, then immigrants would not be a problem. However, if you start to introduce social welfare programs, then those from low socioeconomic backgrounds become a problem, since you create a system where the immigrants take more then they consume and are just a drain on the economy. Watch the video as Milton Friedman explains illegal immigration.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
JustinChains
Posts: 40
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4/16/2011 4:41:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The people that disagree here are all speaking from emotion and not from intellect. You ask questions, but give no answers.

How could the wall be bad for America?

What, because you rationally think that illegal immigrants, drugs, weaponry, etc. coming across our borders HELPS America? And you call ME unpatriotic? The fact is that our country was founded by immigrants, yes, illegal immigrants, no. You know not what you speak. The people founded our country came here as they could today... Legally.

And on wages...

The fact of the matter is that cheap labor lowers the average income, which in turn lowers the average quality of living from a lack of finances.

And yes, I can logically conclude that those jobs that were filled by illegal immigrants would be filled by Americans. Unless there is absolutely no unemployment, then it is only rational and logical to make this conclusion.

And an illegal immigrant that just wants to leave his home and live in America, has just as much of a right to as anyone that currently lives here or was born here. As long as they do it LEGALLY.

The border wall is a rational and logical solution to some very important problems in America.

Unless anyone can tell me why this border wall would negatively impact America....

Do not question my Patriotism.

I am a true Patriotic American.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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4/16/2011 4:49:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 4:41:17 PM, JustinChains wrote:
The people that disagree here are all speaking from emotion and not from intellect. You ask questions, but give no answers.

How could the wall be bad for America?

What, because you rationally think that illegal immigrants, drugs, weaponry, etc. coming across our borders HELPS America? And you call ME unpatriotic? The fact is that our country was founded by immigrants, yes, illegal immigrants, no. You know not what you speak. The people founded our country came here as they could today... Legally.

And on wages...

The fact of the matter is that cheap labor lowers the average income, which in turn lowers the average quality of living from a lack of finances.

And yes, I can logically conclude that those jobs that were filled by illegal immigrants would be filled by Americans. Unless there is absolutely no unemployment, then it is only rational and logical to make this conclusion.

And an illegal immigrant that just wants to leave his home and live in America, has just as much of a right to as anyone that currently lives here or was born here. As long as they do it LEGALLY.

The border wall is a rational and logical solution to some very important problems in America.

Unless anyone can tell me why this border wall would negatively impact America....

Do not question my Patriotism.

I am a true Patriotic American.

How is what I said about the GDP emotional?
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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4/16/2011 4:55:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Oh, so you have no problem with legal immigrants? Let's just let anyone who wants to work here come in legally then. And if you don't agree with that, why not? Why do people who happen to have been born here have more of a right to work here than people who choose to live in America?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,212
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4/16/2011 5:05:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 4:55:31 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Oh, so you have no problem with legal immigrants? Let's just let anyone who wants to work here come in legally then. And if you don't agree with that, why not? Why do people who happen to have been born here have more of a right to work here than people who choose to live in America?

He still thinks jobs are a gift.
lovelife
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4/16/2011 5:07:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The white man was the first illegal immigrant into this country.

that said, people that are against freedom to immigrate to the US have no america in their heart.
this was a nation founded by immigrants, for immigrants, to escape hardships.
The US is losing the one thing that was good about it, more and more every time some hick whines about Jesus mowing their neighbors yards and stuff.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
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4/16/2011 5:14:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The fact is that our country was founded by immigrants, yes, illegal immigrants, no. You know not what you speak. The people founded our country came here as they could today... Legally.

my opinion of you just hit a record low.
like how fawkng retarded do you have to be to honestly think that killing the natives, forcing them out of their homes, stealing their food, forcing them to change language, religion, culture, etc was at all legal?
I'm sorry if you think I'm using fallacies, because I'm not. Fallacies involve debating, and I am not debating.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/16/2011 5:43:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 4:41:17 PM, JustinChains wrote:
The people that disagree here are all speaking from emotion and not from intellect. You ask questions, but give no answers.

How could the wall be bad for America?

It costs untold amounts of money and/or has no effect, it removes a valuable thing called labor...

What, because you rationally think that illegal immigrants, drugs, weaponry, etc. coming across our borders HELPS America?
The war on drugs causes the harm to America, not illegal immigrants

And you call ME unpatriotic? The fact is that our country was founded by immigrants, yes, illegal immigrants, no.
Because the founders of our country would never imagine banning immigration.

You know not what you speak. The people founded our country came here as they could today... Legally.
They can't today. There are racist quotas and other barriers.

The fact of the matter is that cheap labor lowers the average income
No, it raises it over those people still existing but not getting any income at all. It's an accounting trick, nothing more.

And yes, I can logically conclude that those jobs that were filled by illegal immigrants would be filled by Americans. Unless there is absolutely no unemployment, then it is only rational and logical to make this conclusion.
No it isn't. There can be demand for a certain job at one price but not another. There can be unqualified people. There can be lazy people.


And an illegal immigrant that just wants to leave his home and live in America, has just as much of a right to as anyone that currently lives here or was born here. As long as they do it LEGALLY.
Vacuous, they can't do it legally.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
JustinChains
Posts: 40
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4/16/2011 6:38:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not sure whose posting everyone is reading... But I never said anything about legal immigrants and me having a problem with them. I have a lot of real life immigrant friends from other countries... About 17 to be exact. I was talking about ILLEGAL immigrants.

And this topic is not about illegal immigration anyways... It is about an American Border wall and why we should or shouldn't build it.

As to any other personal references towards me about killing people or cultures, and/or keeping LEGAL immigrants out of the country... I don't agree with either of these things and a border wall would not effect either of these issues.

- Justin Chains -
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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4/16/2011 6:40:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, you agree that everyone who wants to come here to work should be able to do so legally?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/16/2011 6:46:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You can't start complain about illegal immigrants not paying taxes when they get payed less than minimum wage and work harder than you ever had.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

That is the poem on the statue of motherfuckingliberty.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
JustinChains
Posts: 40
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4/16/2011 6:51:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Also...

- To Grey Parrot -

1.) I do not think jobs are a gift. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

2.) I wasn't being literal in my earlier statement, I was generalizing. No what you said about the GDP is not emotional. But it is also based on assumptions and is not factual. It is logical to assume that if there are unemployed workers in an area, then any job openings that become available will be filled and the company will not go out of business. And since every area in the country has unemployment, it is logical to conclude that the GDP would not be greatly effected in a negative way, or atleast not for a long period of time. As a matter of fact since the jobs would be filled by tax paying American citizens, it would probably be effected in a positive way.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
JustinChains
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4/16/2011 6:55:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
- To LaissezFaire -

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying. If you want to come here as an immigrant to work and build a new life... Do it legally. I support this 110%.

- To Freedo -

You seem very immature and I will not be taking you seriously any further in this forum or any other areas on this website.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -
RoyLatham
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4/16/2011 6:58:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think everyone who favors unlimited immigration should start their speech by saying: "I understand that the Constitution requires that all the benefits of citizenship, including welfare, be given to all residents. I am willing to pay whatever it costs." That would add a great deal of credibility to the arguments.

Personally, I'm not willing to pay whatever it costs. Keep in mind that half of the people in the US pay no income tax at all. So if you want to argue that illegal immigration is economically a benefit, you must argue that they are predominantly in the upper half of income earners. Let's see the data for that.

I think there should be a guest worker program, and that immigration be allowed equitably among people from many countries who want to come here. I think we should give permanent residence status to a lot more professionals in engineering and science. Americans are not much interested in technical and scientific work, and we need the talent.

A border fence with Mexico makes sense. The type of fence that works is really two fences with a patrol road between the two. Cameras spot anyone crossing the first fence and the authorities can get to the spot before they have time to get over the second fence. This is proven to be effective. Immigration is one thing, but there is also arms smuggling into Mexico and drug smuggling into the US. If for some reason the dual fence doesn't work, then we should proceed to militarizing the border. That works.
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/16/2011 7:28:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 6:58:55 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think everyone who favors unlimited immigration should start their speech by saying: "I understand that the Constitution requires that all the benefits of citizenship, including welfare, be given to all residents. I am willing to pay whatever it costs." That would add a great deal of credibility to the arguments.
That requires us to be in favor of welfare.


Personally, I'm not willing to pay whatever it costs. Keep in mind that half of the people in the US pay no income tax at all. So if you want to argue that illegal immigration is economically a benefit, you must argue that they are predominantly in the upper half of income earners.
A. assumes that taxes are the only thing that economically justifies a person and B. assumes that income taxes are the only taxes.

A border fence with Mexico makes sense. The type of fence that works is really two fences with a patrol road between the two. Cameras spot anyone crossing the first fence and the authorities can get to the spot before they have time to get over the second fence.
How many cameras would that take?

This is proven to be effective. Immigration is one thing, but there is also arms smuggling into Mexico and drug smuggling into the US.
Neither of which should be illegal.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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4/16/2011 7:36:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 7:28:27 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/16/2011 6:58:55 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think everyone who favors unlimited immigration should start their speech by saying: "I understand that the Constitution requires that all the benefits of citizenship, including welfare, be given to all residents. I am willing to pay whatever it costs." That would add a great deal of credibility to the arguments.
That requires us to be in favor of welfare.


Personally, I'm not willing to pay whatever it costs. Keep in mind that half of the people in the US pay no income tax at all. So if you want to argue that illegal immigration is economically a benefit, you must argue that they are predominantly in the upper half of income earners.
A. assumes that taxes are the only thing that economically justifies a person and B. assumes that income taxes are the only taxes.

A border fence with Mexico makes sense. The type of fence that works is really two fences with a patrol road between the two. Cameras spot anyone crossing the first fence and the authorities can get to the spot before they have time to get over the second fence.
How many cameras would that take?

This is proven to be effective. Immigration is one thing, but there is also arms smuggling into Mexico and drug smuggling into the US.
Neither of which should be illegal.

Right on the money.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Greyparrot
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4/16/2011 7:47:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It costs the country a lot of money to subsidize poor immigrants with all the social programs we have in place. To become a legal citizen, you have to really prove your self sustainability (which no native born poor person ever has to worry about).
In some places, Illegal immigrants drain 25% of total state social services through school, food, and health services.

That being said, Americans enjoy lower prices from goods produced by illegal immigrants. The illegals are living better off than their home country, and Americans have a cheaper cost of living. The removal of all the illegals would create a void in this system. I predict at these unemployment rates that perhaps 50% of these jobs could be filled by desperate Americans, but certainly not 100%. We are talking about millions of undocumented workers, and also, many of the jobs are regional to the border. That means it will be unlikely to see a significant percentage of, say, New York unemployed migrate to Arizona to do construction work. To think that 100% of these businesses would still be able to compete when the labor costs rise 5 times is absurd. Some of these businesses will go under, that is a fact.

So you balance the drain on social services with the lower cost of living, and it's becoming a tough call to make these days whether it is still a good deal for us.

But it is a guarantee that the GDP will take a hit if we lose all that labor force.

Also, jobs are a contract, not entitlements to anyone just because they have an American birth certificate.
Greyparrot
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4/16/2011 7:54:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/16/2011 2:21:22 PM, JustinChains wrote:
I'm sorry, but if anyone thinks that taking away good labor jobs from tax paying :Americans and giving them to cheap waged illegal immigrants

The job thing is from this, sorry, forgot to put that in.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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4/16/2011 8:08:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 4/15/2011 10:04:49 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Whatever happened to the days when unemployment was fought by building ridiculously large sh!t for no reason?

We need to build the biggest pyramid ever. A pyramid the size of Kansas, located in Kansas. Fvck Kansas!

Look at all these mountains we have in this country, it's time to put them to good use!

LMAO!
JustinChains
Posts: 40
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4/16/2011 8:15:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is no argument that anyone can make that is going to convince me that illegal immigrants are good for America. It doesn't make logical sense. We use taxes to pay for everything that needs to be done and if millions of people that are filling job voids in America are not paying taxes, then America takes a hit as a whole and won't be able to fix it's problems as efficiently. Illegal immigrants should not be here under any circumstances. If the GDP takes a hit (which I seriously don't think it would), then so be it. A lack of people to fill jobs will only bring up wages. This happens because companies will compete for employees and a result of that competition is higher wages. And regardless of that fact, if the jobs aren't being filled efficiently, as you say they wouldn't be, then I don't see a problem. The only way that a job wouldn't be filled is if there is nobody to fill that job (and I have explained the result of that above), or that the job or company offering the job is not efficiently needed in that area. That is survival of the strongest and it's the way the world goes round. Nothing bad can come from a job market that is in competition over employees, not productivity. Such competition is the best form of economy, because all it needs to grow is more people, and America has no deficiency in legal American citizen population growth, nor American citizens that are already unemployed and looking for work.

We have plenty of American citizens to keep the GDP healthy. I would like to see proof that we don't have enough legal American citizens to support my claim.
"Live True. Love Strong. Let the fires of integrity burn bright in your soul."

- Justin Chains -