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Who has more blood on their hands?

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...)
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/4/2011 2:38:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war.
That's only from direct attacks. It is far more as a result of the entire occupation.
FREEDO
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5/4/2011 2:45:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:38:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war.
That's only from direct attacks. It is far more as a result of the entire occupation.

I am aware of this.

The Opinion Research Business has estimated the deaths as ranging between 733,158 to 1,446,063.

But I don't think many conservatives would be able to swallow their pride enough to accept that.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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5/4/2011 2:46:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:45:44 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:38:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war.
That's only from direct attacks. It is far more as a result of the entire occupation.

I am aware of this.

The Opinion Research Business has estimated the deaths as ranging between 733,158 to 1,446,063.

But I don't think many iraq-war-supporters would be able to swallow their pride enough to accept that.

Fix
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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5/4/2011 2:49:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:46:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:45:44 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:38:48 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war.
That's only from direct attacks. It is far more as a result of the entire occupation.

I am aware of this.

The Opinion Research Business has estimated the deaths as ranging between 733,158 to 1,446,063.

But I don't think many iraq-war-supporters would be able to swallow their pride enough to accept that.

Fix

And that was actually done in 2005.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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5/4/2011 3:55:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
A horrifying and shocking loss of life, and unquestionably worse than 9/11. However, 9/11 had people planning to commit atrocities. I doubt at any point in the Iraq war did anyone go out planning to commit atrocities, and the war was started with intent to commit atrocities.
I can not place the same level of responsability on Bush and Blair as I can Osama.
FREEDO
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5/4/2011 4:01:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:55:19 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
A horrifying and shocking loss of life, and unquestionably worse than 9/11. However, 9/11 had people planning to commit atrocities. I doubt at any point in the Iraq war did anyone go out planning to commit atrocities, and the war was started with intent to commit atrocities.
I can not place the same level of responsability on Bush and Blair as I can Osama.

The intent of the Iraq war was absolutely one of malice. The government knows better than anyone how much civilian genocide they've committed and they have continued to do it, not for national defense and not for justice, it was all for money and that's the simple truth.
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fnord
Thaddeus
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5/4/2011 4:06:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 4:01:13 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:55:19 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
A horrifying and shocking loss of life, and unquestionably worse than 9/11. However, 9/11 had people planning to commit atrocities. I doubt at any point in the Iraq war did anyone go out planning to commit atrocities, and the war was started with intent to commit atrocities.
I can not place the same level of responsability on Bush and Blair as I can Osama.

The intent of the Iraq war was absolutely one of malice. The government knows better than anyone how much civilian genocide they've committed and they have continued to do it, not for national defense and not for justice, it was all for money and that's the simple truth.

How can one prove the intent was malicious? Doing it for money is one thing and possibly can be proven, but to prove that they went in, intending to harm citizens...
(Also technically not genocide, but I get what you mean)
FREEDO
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5/4/2011 4:11:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 4:06:07 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 5/4/2011 4:01:13 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:55:19 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
A horrifying and shocking loss of life, and unquestionably worse than 9/11. However, 9/11 had people planning to commit atrocities. I doubt at any point in the Iraq war did anyone go out planning to commit atrocities, and the war was started with intent to commit atrocities.
I can not place the same level of responsability on Bush and Blair as I can Osama.

The intent of the Iraq war was absolutely one of malice. The government knows better than anyone how much civilian genocide they've committed and they have continued to do it, not for national defense and not for justice, it was all for money and that's the simple truth.

How can one prove the intent was malicious? Doing it for money is one thing and possibly can be proven, but to prove that they went in, intending to harm citizens...
(Also technically not genocide, but I get what you mean)

They didn't go in and specifically select civilian targets. There's simply no point to that. What they did do was go in and simply kill everyone regardless of whether they were civilian or not. And it is the single most profitable business in the world. That is malice.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/4/2011 4:14:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...)

War is a terrible thing, no kidding.

WWII Civilian deaths: between 37,585,300 - 55,207,000, those are staggering numbers.
China and Russia were the biggest losers in civilian deaths.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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5/4/2011 11:08:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...):

The civilians killed in Iraq were more the cause of the insurgency (which are often conveniently left out of the equation), but certainly Coalition forces have created tremendous collateral damage.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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5/4/2011 11:17:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
And this, well, is sad, pathetic, and unacceptable.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ore_Ele
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5/4/2011 11:19:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...)

And how many of those were killed by suicide bombers that would go into a crowded area and kill dozens?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
1stLordofTheVenerability
Posts: 53
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5/4/2011 11:30:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...)

I deem it important to ask this... how did they die? In every war, there are two sides. Yes, I imagine that a fair share has fallen because they, "got in the way" of US assaults, but don't you think that perhaps an even greater share fell because extremist organizations cut them down or used them as human shields? Or were hit by indiscriminate mortars, artillery, bombs, grenades, disease, toxic weapons and the like?

I'm not justifying their deaths. It's a tragic loss of life, but how many more would have died if Hussein had been left to his own devices?
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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5/4/2011 3:41:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 11:30:18 AM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:26:55 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Almost 3,000 civilian lives were lost in the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center.

Over 92,000 civilian Iraqi lives have been lost in the Iraq war. That's not even counting Afghanistan, Libya and countless other places where we have a military presence. (according to wikileaks: http://www.spiegel.de...)

I deem it important to ask this... how did they die? In every war, there are two sides. Yes, I imagine that a fair share has fallen because they, "got in the way" of US assaults, but don't you think that perhaps an even greater share fell because extremist organizations cut them down or used them as human shields? Or were hit by indiscriminate mortars, artillery, bombs, grenades, disease, toxic weapons and the like?

I'm not justifying their deaths. It's a tragic loss of life, but how many more would have died if Hussein had been left to his own devices?

If you use that tactic, there will probably more deaths by the hands of the Kims in North Korea, if they are left to their own devices. Just saying....
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/4/2011 3:44:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.

This may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, and perhaps even the most cruel and insane thing I've heard.

Let's make this clear. It is NEVER justified to kill INNOCENT people. I don't care how badly we screwed over the Middle East with bad foreign policy, they should retaliate at the actual people who caused the harm. The innocent people in the Twin Towers had NOTHING to do with the U.S.' terrorization of the Middle East.

It is absurd to think that it's ever ok to kill 3,000 innocent people for no reason.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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5/4/2011 3:45:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did.

The innocent civilians murdered in 9/11 were not responsible for US foreign policy decisions. They were, for the most part, ordinary people with ordinary jobs with families and friends, who had no quarrel or even knowledge of societies in the middle east. To claim that the mass murder of thousands of innocent people is justified is monstrous.
InsertNameHere
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5/4/2011 3:45:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:44:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.

This may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, and perhaps even the most cruel and insane thing I've heard.

Let's make this clear. It is NEVER justified to kill INNOCENT people. I don't care how badly we screwed over the Middle East with bad foreign policy, they should retaliate at the actual people who caused the harm. The innocent people in the Twin Towers had NOTHING to do with the U.S.' terrorization of the Middle East.

It is absurd to think that it's ever ok to kill 3,000 innocent people for no reason.

I don't see what the problem is, considering the US foreign policy has resulted in the deaths of many more innocent people.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/4/2011 3:46:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Inb4 moral nihilists.

Please, just save it.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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5/4/2011 3:47:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:44:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.

This may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, and perhaps even the most cruel and insane thing I've heard.

Let's make this clear. It is NEVER justified to kill INNOCENT people. I don't care how badly we screwed over the Middle East with bad foreign policy, they should retaliate at the actual people who caused the harm. The innocent people in the Twin Towers had NOTHING to do with the U.S.' terrorization of the Middle East.

It is absurd to think that it's ever ok to kill 3,000 innocent people for no reason.

This. Americans don't choose to go to war. The military industrial complex does. If you want to kill anyone kill the lobbyists that support the foreign aggression.
Open borders debate:
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InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/4/2011 3:47:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:45:21 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did.

The innocent civilians murdered in 9/11 were not responsible for US foreign policy decisions. They were, for the most part, ordinary people with ordinary jobs with families and friends, who had no quarrel or even knowledge of societies in the middle east. To claim that the mass murder of thousands of innocent people is justified is monstrous.

As I just said to Geo, the US foreign policy has resulted in the deaths of way more innocent people than 9/11 did.
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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5/4/2011 3:49:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:47:25 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:44:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.

This may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, and perhaps even the most cruel and insane thing I've heard.

Let's make this clear. It is NEVER justified to kill INNOCENT people. I don't care how badly we screwed over the Middle East with bad foreign policy, they should retaliate at the actual people who caused the harm. The innocent people in the Twin Towers had NOTHING to do with the U.S.' terrorization of the Middle East.

It is absurd to think that it's ever ok to kill 3,000 innocent people for no reason.

This. Americans don't choose to go to war. The military industrial complex does. If you want to kill anyone kill the lobbyists that support the foreign aggression.

They are much harder to kill :)
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/4/2011 3:51:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:45:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:44:19 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/4/2011 3:36:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm totally going to get sh*t for this(ok, maybe not so much on this site since there appears to be very few hicks here), but personally I feel that 9/11 was justified. It was about time that the US took a blow after years of aggressive foreign policy which resulted in many more deaths than 9/11 did. I kinda hope it would have been a wake up call for the US to maybe reconsider their objectives, but apparently not since they invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11(it was likely Saudis trained in Yemen).

Anyway, to answer Freedo's original question, I'd say the US certainly has more blood on their hands and it's hypocritical for them to condemn others for killing when the US does just that daily.

This may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, and perhaps even the most cruel and insane thing I've heard.

Let's make this clear. It is NEVER justified to kill INNOCENT people. I don't care how badly we screwed over the Middle East with bad foreign policy, they should retaliate at the actual people who caused the harm. The innocent people in the Twin Towers had NOTHING to do with the U.S.' terrorization of the Middle East.

It is absurd to think that it's ever ok to kill 3,000 innocent people for no reason.

I don't see what the problem is,

Wow... You see no problem with killing innocent people?

considering the US foreign policy has resulted in the deaths of many more innocent people.

So if we went over there and killed 100,000 babies, it's ok for them to come here and kill 3,000 babies? Heck, we killed way more babies so it's no big deal if they want to have their small piece of the pie and add a few thousand deaths to the world, right?

This is insanity.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/4/2011 3:58:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Perhaps justified wasn't the right word, but I still feel that the US deserved some kind of blow due to their foreign policy. I just wished it would have served more as a wake up call. :/ Also, The US foreign policy is most likely the main reason America is hated around the world.
GeoLaureate8
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5/4/2011 4:00:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
@Insert

I find it rather ironic that you expected all the "smart" DDO members to agree with you and suggested that only "hicks" would disagree with you.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
badger
Posts: 11,793
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5/4/2011 4:01:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
also, where the fvck was the plane that supposedly hit the pentagon?

also.. bin laden once worked with the cia.. why couldn't he have done so or be doing so again?

resource war?

who else has blood on their hands i'm thinking? :)
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InsertNameHere
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5/4/2011 4:01:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 4:00:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
@Insert

I find it rather ironic that you expected all the "smart" DDO members to agree with you and suggested that only "hicks" would disagree with you.

I didn't expect that at all, but I constantly get sh*t for my views from hicks.
Kinesis
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5/4/2011 4:04:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 3:58:39 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Perhaps justified wasn't the right word, but I still feel that the US deserved some kind of blow due to their foreign policy. I just wished it would have served more as a wake up call. :/

A wake up call? How was the response to 9/11 ever going to be anything other than invasion? You think the Americans, after being attacked on their own turf were just going to go "oh, well then. This is a real wake up call, guess we'd better stop messing with the middle east"?. Terrorism creates more hatred, more justification for retaliation and more innocent deaths.