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An Open Letter to Charles

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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5/23/2011 7:14:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
An Open Letter to Charles

Your thought seems to emanate from a fearful skepticism of the free market. You seem to take it for granted that some kind of dystopian nightmare is the only and the inexorable outcome of the market libertarian's dream of social justice for all.

Well, I for one humbly but strenuously beg to disagree that the free market is the catastrophic anticlimax that all libertarian thought unavoidably leads to.

You seem to think that the economy that presently exists in the United States is a more-or-less rough guide to what our group wants. That is, you think we want the United States but more so. Few things could be farther from the truth.

The base of the United States economy is emphatically not the free market with but a few pesky regulations to do away with but a structure based on political privilege and mass robbery with a little market mixed in to make the system more efficient in its exploitation.

There is much truth to the proverb "behind every great fortune there is a great crime."

The truth of the matter is that a market libertarian society would be much more egalitarian, not more stratified.

We intend to tie the obtainment of wealth to the creation of value not, as it currently is, to political connections.

The robber barons all made it rich through privilege, which is but robbery y another name. We will end privilege, nailing a figurative stake into the figurative heart of this figurative blood-sucking vampire.

Comrade Charles, join us in the good fight. Embrace the free market as your friend. Not the phony free market, the free market of Thomas Friedman, Augusto Pinochet and George W Bush, but the true free market of Benjamin Tucker, Gustave de Molinari and Murray Rothbard.

- Reasoning

P.S. You also seem to be under the perplexing illusion that we currently live in a world that exemplifies the spirit of egoistic individualism, but as I part company from my compatriots on part of this issue I will leave this untouched until another time.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/23/2011 7:23:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.

Here.

http://www.debate.org...
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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5/23/2011 7:25:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:23:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.

Here.

http://www.debate.org...

Oh ok. I saw the other Charles's post, but it was so big, long and scary (that's what she said), that I didn't read it. Whenever I see forum posts more than two paragraphs long, I run away in fear.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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5/23/2011 8:26:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:25:10 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:23:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.

Here.

http://www.debate.org...

Oh ok. I saw the other Charles's post, but it was so big, long and scary (that's what she said), that I didn't read it. Whenever I see forum posts more than two paragraphs long, I run away in fear.

Not all long posts are scary. It all depends on who wrote them and their style. I generally don't read charleslb's long-winded rants. If pooka (just for example) wrote something 20 paragraphs long, I would certainly read it.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Grape
Posts: 989
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5/23/2011 8:39:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 8:26:54 PM, tvellalott wrote:
If pooka (just for example) wrote something 20 paragraphs long, I would certainly read it.

Except he wouldn't because he can say what he means to without using so much space.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/23/2011 10:27:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:14:37 PM, Reasoning wrote:
An Open Letter to Charles

Your thought seems to emanate from a fearful skepticism of the free market. You seem to take it for granted that some kind of dystopian nightmare is the only and the inexorable outcome of the market libertarian's dream of social justice for all.

Well, I for one humbly but strenuously beg to disagree that the free market is the catastrophic anticlimax that all libertarian thought unavoidably leads to.

You seem to think that the economy that presently exists in the United States is a more-or-less rough guide to what our group wants. That is, you think we want the United States but more so. Few things could be farther from the truth.

The base of the United States economy is emphatically not the free market with but a few pesky regulations to do away with but a structure based on political privilege and mass robbery with a little market mixed in to make the system more efficient in its exploitation.

There is much truth to the proverb "behind every great fortune there is a great crime."

The truth of the matter is that a market libertarian society would be much more egalitarian, not more stratified.

We intend to tie the obtainment of wealth to the creation of value not, as it currently is, to political connections.

The robber barons all made it rich through privilege, which is but robbery y another name. We will end privilege, nailing a figurative stake into the figurative heart of this figurative blood-sucking vampire.

Comrade Charles, join us in the good fight. Embrace the free market as your friend. Not the phony free market, the free market of Thomas Friedman, Augusto Pinochet and George W Bush, but the true free market of Benjamin Tucker, Gustave de Molinari and Murray Rothbard.

- Reasoning

P.S. You also seem to be under the perplexing illusion that we currently live in a world that exemplifies the spirit of egoistic individualism, but as I part company from my compatriots on part of this issue I will leave this untouched until another time.

Saw that one coming.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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5/24/2011 9:17:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 8:26:54 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:25:10 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:23:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.

Here.

http://www.debate.org...

Oh ok. I saw the other Charles's post, but it was so big, long and scary (that's what she said), that I didn't read it. Whenever I see forum posts more than two paragraphs long, I run away in fear.

Not all long posts are scary. It all depends on who wrote them and their style. I generally don't read charleslb's long-winded rants. If pooka (just for example) wrote something 20 paragraphs long, I would certainly read it.

Good point.

But, would you read 20 paragraphs of something that I wrote?
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Thaddeus
Posts: 6,985
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5/24/2011 9:27:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/24/2011 9:17:44 AM, Charles0103 wrote:
At 5/23/2011 8:26:54 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:25:10 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:23:03 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:22:43 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 5/23/2011 7:20:52 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Please tell me this letter is for Charleslb and not for simple-minded, little Charles0103.

Yes, it is in responce to his post earlier.

Here.

http://www.debate.org...

Oh ok. I saw the other Charles's post, but it was so big, long and scary (that's what she said), that I didn't read it. Whenever I see forum posts more than two paragraphs long, I run away in fear.

Not all long posts are scary. It all depends on who wrote them and their style. I generally don't read charleslb's long-winded rants. If pooka (just for example) wrote something 20 paragraphs long, I would certainly read it.

Good point.

But, would you read 20 paragraphs of something that I wrote?

I'd read the first 5 and make a judgement from then. If I have to decide before reading, then probably not
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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5/24/2011 10:38:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:14:37 PM, Reasoning wrote:
An Open Letter to Charles

Your thought seems to emanate from a fearful skepticism of the free market. You seem to take it for granted that some kind of dystopian nightmare is the only and the inexorable outcome of the market libertarian's dream of social justice for all.

Well, I for one humbly but strenuously beg to disagree that the free market is the catastrophic anticlimax that all libertarian thought unavoidably leads to.

You seem to think that the economy that presently exists in the United States is a more-or-less rough guide to what our group wants. That is, you think we want the United States but more so. Few things could be farther from the truth.

The base of the United States economy is emphatically not the free market with but a few pesky regulations to do away with but a structure based on political privilege and mass robbery with a little market mixed in to make the system more efficient in its exploitation.

There is much truth to the proverb "behind every great fortune there is a great crime."

The truth of the matter is that a market libertarian society would be much more egalitarian, not more stratified.

We intend to tie the obtainment of wealth to the creation of value not, as it currently is, to political connections.

The robber barons all made it rich through privilege, which is but robbery y another name. We will end privilege, nailing a figurative stake into the figurative heart of this figurative blood-sucking vampire.

Comrade Charles, join us in the good fight. Embrace the free market as your friend. Not the phony free market, the free market of Thomas Friedman, Augusto Pinochet and George W Bush, but the true free market of Benjamin Tucker, Gustave de Molinari and Murray Rothbard.

- Reasoning

P.S. You also seem to be under the perplexing illusion that we currently live in a world that exemplifies the spirit of egoistic individualism, but as I part company from my compatriots on part of this issue I will leave this untouched until another time.

I don't have time just now for a detailed reply that does justice to your post (I skipped lunch today and need to devour some dinner pretty soon), I'll just say that one of the deal-breaker problems with a "free market" that it's true believers stubbornly and conveniently gloss over is the fact that sans any regulation of the behavior of capitalists (and even under systems that do have laws that supposedly regulate what individuals can and can not do in the pursuit of economic self-aggrandizement) alpha capitalists would soon arise who would take advantage of the free-for-all situation of a "free market" to take over and turn said "free market" into a rigged system run by themselves.

In other words, a "free market" would not long survive past the point that a few uber capitalists are able to establish their dominance and thoroughly subvert it. To put things quite bluntly, your free-marketarian philosophy is as poorly adjusted for the facts of human nature as pro-capitalists accuse socialist philosophies of being. Yep, any one who thinks that it would ever be possible to count on capitalists let loose to run amok in their natural habitat to refrain from destroying the integrity and dream of a "free market", or that they would be restrained from doing so by the market's "invisible hand", is kidding themselves big time. It's everyone's prerogative to kid himself/herself, of course, but please don't try to take the rest of society down a path of libertarian good intentions to a hellish experiment with unfettered capitalism.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Ragnar_Rahl
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5/24/2011 10:45:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You simply assert that to be a fact, you don't actually argue for it. One would think you'd be better at detailing an argument, but nope, you prefer being more content-light, no matter how long your posts get.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/25/2011 11:01:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/23/2011 7:14:37 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Comrade Charles, join us in the good fight. Embrace the free market as your friend. Not the phony free market, the free market of Thomas Friedman, Augusto Pinochet and George W Bush, but the true free market of Benjamin Tucker, Gustave de Molinari and Murray Rothbard.

Tucker and Rothbard did not agree on everything so I'm curious to see who's version of the "true" free market you're referring to. First Tucker originally agreed with Proudhon that private property = theft... which you also seem to agree with (sometimes?) but I digress. Then he advocated distribution of property in an undistorted natural market as a mediator of egoistic impulses and a source of social stability. Then he did a complete 180 and took the might makes right approach, saying in 1862 "Man's only right to land is his might over it. If his neighbor is mightier than he and takes the land from him, then the land is his neighbor's, until the latter is dispossessed by one mightier still." Clearly Rothbard disagrees with that assessment and in fact all three of Tucker's positions on property... so what does the TRUE free market refer to, if these proponents of the true free market propose different things?
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Reasoning
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5/25/2011 4:27:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/25/2011 11:01:19 AM, Danielle wrote:
Tucker and Rothbard did not agree on everything so I'm curious to see who's version of the "true" free market you're referring to.

They did not agree on everything, true. But they were very close, relatively speaking.

First Tucker originally agreed with Proudhon that private property = theft...

Rothbard also considered much private property that currently exists theft.

Then he advocated distribution of property in an undistorted natural market as a mediator of egoistic impulses and a source of social stability. Then he did a complete 180 and took the might makes right approach, saying in 1862 "Man's only right to land is his might over it.

That's far from a complete 180.

If his neighbor is mightier than he and takes the land from him, then the land is his neighbor's, until the latter is dispossessed by one mightier still."

Yes, very Sternerian of him. It is a very insightful quote.

Clearly Rothbard disagrees with that assessment and in fact all three of Tucker's positions on property... so what does the TRUE free market refer to, if these proponents of the true free market propose different things?

Rothbard and Tucker may speak a different language but they say more-or-less the same thing when it comes down to it.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/3/2011 10:51:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Reasoning, do you think you're being obscurely vague? You're not. You're being blatantly ambiguous to the point where it's obvious you haven't actually provided a remotely legitimate answer to my question. You said Charles needs to accept the "true" free market, that of Rothbard and Tucker. I pointed out that Rothbard and Tucker advocated different things, so WHOSE VERSION is the "true" one?

Let's see what your responses were:

- They did not agree on everything, true. But they were very close, relatively speaking.


They were close, sure, but disagreed about property rights (as one example) which is a fundamental tenant of the capitalist philosophy. In fact some might say it's the core issue of the ideology, so disagreeing on this is pretty important.

- Rothbard also considered much private property that currently exists theft.

Okay, that doesn't change the fact that Tucker originally agreed with Proudhon that ALL property is theft - something Rothbard obviously disagrees with. This is neither here nor there though; my point was that Tucker's final conclusion about property is still different from Rothbard's conclusion.

- That's far from a complete 180.

I disagree, but let's focus on one thing at a time...

- Yes, very Sternerian of him. It is a very insightful quote.

You think might makes right is insightful? Okay. Once again, one thing at a time...

- Rothbard and Tucker may speak a different language but they say more-or-less the same thing when it comes down to it.

As you can see, you didn't even try to answer. You just said they "more or less" say the same thing. I obviously know that, but my question was whose version of the free market defines the TRUE version? As in, considering the differences they DO have, who do you agree with and why? Who is wrong and why? And once again, if one of them is wrong, then how does your proposition to accept their true free market make sense?

I BARELY go on DDO anymore, but I'll check back on this thread. Get back to me nigga. I'm curious.
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