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Non-Aggression Principle Explained

Reasoning
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6/1/2011 3:31:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:06:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.

The video seemed to suggest that police in general start the violence.

Would this video fall under the fraud label addressed in this video?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/2/2011 1:15:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:06:33 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.

The video seemed to suggest that police in general start the violence.
The video authors are ancaps, but there is exactly one police officer in the video. If I depict rape does that imply all men are rapists?


Would this video fall under the fraud label addressed in this video?
Seeming to suggest something isn't fraud even by the fairly loose standards of fraud the authors of video seem to have-- which I questioned them on in the comments for the video.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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6/2/2011 1:16:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:06:33 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.

The video seemed to suggest that police in general start the violence.
They do, in general. Not always though--and the situation you describe would be one of the situations where they aren't the aggressors.
Would this video fall under the fraud label addressed in this video?
No. But even if they were lying about something, it still wouldn't. Just lying isn't fraud--you have to use deceit to take someone's property or hurt their person. Like, if I sold you a car, but I lied and said it worked when it didn't, that would be fraud, because I got your money by lying about what our exchange really was. If I just lied to you about something, but didn't get any of your property out of it, it wouldn't be fraud.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:22:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:15:26 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:06:33 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.

The video seemed to suggest that police in general start the violence.
The video authors are ancaps, but there is exactly one police officer in the video. If I depict rape does that imply all men are rapists?

Couldn't the non-aggression principle be taught without the use of the cop?


Would this video fall under the fraud label addressed in this video?
Seeming to suggest something isn't fraud even by the fairly loose standards of fraud the authors of video seem to have-- which I questioned them on in the comments for the video.

If they had used just a regular person instead of a cop I would recognize the overtly ancap message. But then if they used a regular person it could have been mistaken for a Barney or Dora episode. ;)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/2/2011 1:25:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Couldn't the non-aggression principle be taught without the use of the cop?
Could? Sure. Should? Why?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:27:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:16:10 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:06:33 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:04:22 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:01:12 AM, jharry wrote:
What do you call this?

Woman is being beat by drunk boyfriend.

Woman calls police.

Police arrive.

Drunk boyfriend attempts to attack cops.

Cops defend themselves and remove man from home.

Is this violating the non-aggression principle?

Is who violating the non-aggression principle? The boyfriend is, the cops aren't--the boyfriend started the violence, the cop just responded to it, which isn't aggression.

The video seemed to suggest that police in general start the violence.
They do, in general. Not always though--and the situation you describe would be one of the situations where they aren't the aggressors.

It is misleading. The video would have me think that I should be worried about being assaulted by cops. It could have taught the non-aggression principle without the use of the cop.
Would this video fall under the fraud label addressed in this video?
No. But even if they were lying about something, it still wouldn't. Just lying isn't fraud--you have to use deceit to take someone's property or hurt their person. Like, if I sold you a car, but I lied and said it worked when it didn't, that would be fraud, because I got your money by lying about what our exchange really was. If I just lied to you about something, but didn't get any of your property out of it, it wouldn't be fraud.

Fraud doesn't have to deal with money to be considered fraud. Maybe not in the strict definition of the video. I was wrong about that.

But selling an idea using false evidence is still fraud.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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6/2/2011 1:30:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:27:58 AM, jharry wrote:
It is misleading. The video would have me think that I should be worried about being assaulted by cops. It could have taught the non-aggression principle without the use of the cop.

You should be worried about being assaulted by the cops.
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Muh threads
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jharry
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6/2/2011 1:34:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:25:27 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Couldn't the non-aggression principle be taught without the use of the cop?
Could? Sure. Should? Why?

Well I don't care about the should. But it could have, but then it could be mistaken for a Dora or Barney episode.

And that wasn't the purpose of the video. It attempts to sell an idea that seems great, and non-aggression is great, but by adding the cop it falsely portrays cops as being the aggressor when in reality humans are the aggressors. And this is true under any system in society. Smells like propaganda to me. Has anyone showed this to a child? I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:35:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:30:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:27:58 AM, jharry wrote:
It is misleading. The video would have me think that I should be worried about being assaulted by cops. It could have taught the non-aggression principle without the use of the cop.

You should be worried about being assaulted by the cops.

Please tell me why.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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6/2/2011 1:50:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I read a debate where private security guards would be better then police.

Here is a video that shows a security guard acting just like a cop.

http://www.youtube.com...

This shows that it isn't a cop problem, it is a human problem. Under any system in society there will be aggressors. I'm al for the best system, I just haven't seen one that tops what we have now. What we have now is far from perfect dont get me wrong, but I haven't seen a viable alternative.
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tvellalott
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6/2/2011 1:54:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:35:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:30:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:27:58 AM, jharry wrote:
It is misleading. The video would have me think that I should be worried about being assaulted by cops. It could have taught the non-aggression principle without the use of the cop.

You should be worried about being assaulted by the cops.

Please tell me why.

Coz. :D
Probably not you specifically, but given the undeniable fallibility of the police is very concerning. This story comes to mind; this is a place I spent a lot of time at as a youngster...
http://www.theage.com.au...
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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jharry
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6/2/2011 2:05:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 1:54:11 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:35:57 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:30:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/2/2011 1:27:58 AM, jharry wrote:
It is misleading. The video would have me think that I should be worried about being assaulted by cops. It could have taught the non-aggression principle without the use of the cop.

You should be worried about being assaulted by the cops.

Please tell me why.

Coz. :D
Probably not you specifically, but given the undeniable fallibility of the police is very concerning. This story comes to mind; this is a place I spent a lot of time at as a youngster...
http://www.theage.com.au...

That really sucks. It is awful it came down to that.

Actually I have had my arse whopped by cops before. I was the aggressor. Growing up the cops quickly learned I needed to be shackled head to toe. I'm just as good with my feet as I am with my hands. They figured out quickly it was best to discourage me from fighting. And they were right. I have and will use the same method Whrn defending myself.

Your story reminds me of my brother-in-law. He had tried to commit suicide by cop three times. His picture has been sent to schools and other public places with a warning. I do pray that the cops can handle any given situation to the best of their abilities. In those three occasions they were able to talk him down. I doubt the will he has to actually force the move but I can't make a objective call on it because I wasn't there evertime.

But I honestly can't see the situation being any different with an ancap version of security.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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6/2/2011 2:12:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago

And that wasn't the purpose of the video. It attempts to sell an idea that seems great, and non-aggression is great, but by adding the cop it falsely portrays cops as being the aggressor when in reality humans are the aggressors.
Irrelevant conclusion. Cops are humans after all.

I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
This cop is.
In other media cops are frequently portrayed as retaliators, do you b**** about it then?

The point of the video is well served by using government officials. It is, you see, a libertarian video, and people need to be reminded that government violence is violence too. A government, after all, is so well established as a monopoly on violence that people don't really think about it. Do they call the prison warden a slavedriver? No, but that's what he is, for good or ill. In the event the prisoner is guilty of violating a serious and just law I'm perfectly fine with him being a slave, but that's no reason to evade the fact of his slavery.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jharry
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6/2/2011 2:27:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 2:12:25 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

And that wasn't the purpose of the video. It attempts to sell an idea that seems great, and non-aggression is great, but by adding the cop it falsely portrays cops as being the aggressor when in reality humans are the aggressors.
Irrelevant conclusion. Cops are humans after all.

That is the conclusion. Cops are humans. Security guards are humans. Private security forces are made up of humans. Any corporation is made up of humans. The friggin world is plum full of humans. I care what system you put in place people will still be aggressors.

I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
This cop is.
In other media cops are frequently portrayed as retaliators, do you b**** about it then?
I don't understand the question.

You dropped who was watching the video. The video portrays cops as the aggressors. If a child watched this she would think all coos are the aggressors. There not. That is why gave the scenario at the beginning. There are bad cops, there are also bad security guards.


The point of the video is well served by using government officials. It is, you see, a libertarian video, and people need to be reminded that government violence is violence too. A government, after all, is so well established as a monopoly on violence that people don't really think about it. Do they call the prison warden a slavedriver? No, but that's what he is, for good or ill. In the event the prisoner is guilty of violating a serious and just law I'm perfectly fine with him being a slave, but that's no reason to evade the fact of his slavery.

So you concerned if the are called something or not? Is that it? Would there be no prisons in R_R land?
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Ragnar_Rahl
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6/2/2011 2:33:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
This cop is.
In other media cops are frequently portrayed as retaliators, do you b**** about it then?
I don't understand the question.
Why do cops get a special pass from those of their number being portrayed as aggressors, especially when due to their jobs they are involved in aggression must more often than normal people?


You dropped who was watching the video. The video portrays cops as the aggressors. If a child watched this she would think all coos are the aggressors.
If a child watched police produced videos she would think "Jharry is on the internet, therefore Jharry wants to bad touch me."

The point of the video is well served by using government officials. It is, you see, a libertarian video, and people need to be reminded that government violence is violence too. A government, after all, is so well established as a monopoly on violence that people don't really think about it. Do they call the prison warden a slavedriver? No, but that's what he is, for good or ill. In the event the prisoner is guilty of violating a serious and just law I'm perfectly fine with him being a slave, but that's no reason to evade the fact of his slavery.

So you concerned if the are called something or not? Is that it? Would there be no prisons in R_R land?

I'm not an ancap. Of course, there would be fewer prisons due to lack of drug laws, but there would be prisons.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jharry
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6/2/2011 2:43:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 2:33:40 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
This cop is.
In other media cops are frequently portrayed as retaliators, do you b**** about it then?
I don't understand the question.
Why do cops get a special pass from those of their number being portrayed as aggressors, especially when due to their jobs they are involved in aggression must more often than normal people?

That is there job. If I'm understanding what you said right. How go they get a special pass. I dont get it? Why would a security officer or what ever get a pass.

Like the story tv gave me. I wasn't there so it's hard to comment. But I can tell you this. My son doesn't skate, but if he did and a kid started threating my son with a knife I would intervene. If the kid came at me with a knife he would catch three in the chest if I had to and I had the chance. Should I let the kid kill me? And then maybe my son? And yours?

That is there job to step in harms way if I'm not there, or your not. Yes there are bad cops. And they are punished by the same laws they swore to uphold. It is the same under any system we put in place.


You dropped who was watching the video. The video portrays cops as the aggressors. If a child watched this she would think all coos are the aggressors.
If a child watched police produced videos she would think "Jharry is on the internet, therefore Jharry wants to bad touch me."

Lol. It's ok if you have no relevant response. This video is propaganda intended to fraud the viewer into believing something that isn't true.


The point of the video is well served by using government officials. It is, you see, a libertarian video, and people need to be reminded that government violence is violence too. A government, after all, is so well established as a monopoly on violence that people don't really think about it. Do they call the prison warden a slavedriver? No, but that's what he is, for good or ill. In the event the prisoner is guilty of violating a serious and just law I'm perfectly fine with him being a slave, but that's no reason to evade the fact of his slavery.

So you concerned if the are called something or not? Is that it? Would there be no prisons in R_R land?

I'm not an ancap. Of course, there would be fewer prisons due to lack of drug laws, but there would be prisons.

So they would still be slave drivers in R_R prisons? So what is your point?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/2/2011 9:28:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 2:43:13 AM, jharry wrote:
At 6/2/2011 2:33:40 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that they would get the impression that cops are the aggressors.
This cop is.
In other media cops are frequently portrayed as retaliators, do you b**** about it then?
I don't understand the question.
Why do cops get a special pass from those of their number being portrayed as aggressors, especially when due to their jobs they are involved in aggression must more often than normal people?

That is there job.
As it is for any SS member.

Why would a security officer or what ever get a pass.
They don't, they either get fired for violating the conditions of their job, or if the security firm encourages aggression, the security firm makes enemies.


Like the story tv gave me. I wasn't there so it's hard to comment. But I can tell you this. My son doesn't skate, but if he did and a kid started threating my son with a knife I would intervene. If the kid came at me with a knife he would catch three in the chest if I had to and I had the chance. Should I let the kid kill me? And then maybe my son? And yours?
No, what does this have to do with anything in the thread?


That is there job to step in harms way if I'm not there, or your not. Yes there are bad cops. And they are punished by the same laws they swore to uphold.
Wishful thinking much of the time.

You dropped who was watching the video. The video portrays cops as the aggressors. If a child watched this she would think all coos are the aggressors.
If a child watched police produced videos she would think "Jharry is on the internet, therefore Jharry wants to bad touch me."

Lol. It's ok if you have no relevant response. This video is propaganda intended to fraud the viewer into believing something that isn't true.
No, it isn't. We've merely demonstrated that children are sometimes capable of leaping to poor conclusions.

So they would still be slave drivers in R_R prisons? So what is your point?
If we don't remember that slave drivers is what they are, we are likely to be far more willing to misuse them.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.