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gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/6/2011 1:02:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
After all my political changes I have never believed in democracy until very recently. I've decided that I like rules but hate rulers and equal political power for everyone is the way to solve that.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/6/2011 1:22:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 1:02:34 AM, FREEDO wrote:
After all my political changes I have never believed in democracy until very recently. I've decided that I like rules but hate rulers and equal political power for everyone is the way to solve that.

So how to democratically solve the situation where millions of people are backing a high profile 'citizen' making an absurd demand. And the millions aren't in fact backing the demand, per say, they are just following the citizen.

And all of them are on a hunger strike. And they 'wont stop' till the government accepts the demand, and the government can't because the demands are stupid.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time. A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.

A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.

Chocolates?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 2:50:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.


The government itself is the group that is bullsh!tting. I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. They are all the same thing.

A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All governments derive their authority from the people.

Whether the voting process is officially sanctioned, and backed by the state is ultimately irrelevant. The mob rules whether or not the government accepts this or not. Whenever people understand this, revolution happens.

All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.

Chocolates?

I love chocolate like a woman on the rag.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/6/2011 3:11:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?

You do know that we don't live in a democracy right? And that it's one of the most inaccurately used term in political discourse? That our founders were afraid of democracy?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 3:21:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The United States is supposed to be a Republic.

Which is like mob rule with um.. rules..
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/6/2011 3:30:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:21:52 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
The United States is supposed to be a Republic.

Which is like mob rule with um.. rules..

Well, mob rule with elected bullies who get to make the rules and play with them. - Ought to make the anarchists happy.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/6/2011 3:38:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:11:10 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?

You do know that we don't live in a democracy right? And that it's one of the most inaccurately used term in political discourse? That our founders were afraid of democracy?

I am not an American. I believe I live in a pretty solid democratic institution.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/6/2011 4:04:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 2:50:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.


The government itself is the group that is bullsh!tting. I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. They are all the same thing.

Though this isn't really what the discussion is about, i can't help but notice you are not responding to the arguments. You say that govt. is sh!tting the people. It is really not saying anything till you provide a measure, a standard pole to measure the level of sh!tting. Obviously in every system of governance, there would some some people who dissent. But we need a system, so you'll have to say- democracy is bad and my system is better because - and you continue.

A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All governments derive their authority from the people.

Whether the voting process is officially sanctioned, and backed by the state is ultimately irrelevant. The mob rules whether or not the government accepts this or not. Whenever people understand this, revolution happens.

This is not true. Here is what Gaddafi did in Libya:He killed the millions of people of his regime, in fact executes the dissidents publically, and the executions are broadcasted on state television channels. The dissenters are the people who dare to question his regime, and were brought to notice by the extensive surveillance system set up by him..." This is an example of what fascism has a power of becoming. The mob does not rule in this instance.


All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.

Chocolates?

I love chocolate like a woman on the rag.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
baggins
Posts: 855
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6/6/2011 12:43:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?

What the government should do:
A government is elected by the people and responsible to them. If a small group is asking for something, it should bypass them, go to the public, explain its position. Remind this group that if they want these things to be part of the law - they are free to contest the next election.

On other hand - these groups have the right to protest. The government should enable them to protest - as long as they do it peacefully and within democratic norms.

What the government should not do:
In the morning - Send all its top ministers to beg a religious leader to not to protest.

At midnight - Send in the policemen to beat up his supporters and arrest the same leader who was feted by the ministers in morning.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
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6/6/2011 12:53:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
BTW, I do not think Baba Ramdev's demands are that dubious. Hang the corrupt was just an extreme part. Demanding some action against tax-defaulters is quite fair. Baba was unlikely to insist on hanging - had the other major demands been met. Though I don't like him that much. I think he is a bit unpredictable. I prefer Anna. His method is more direct, simple and it is easier to understand him.

Still Congress is much better than BJP on corruption. Just see what is going on in Karnataka. The government should sack Kapil Sibal though.

I strongly disagree with people who are blaming Sonia Gandhi for action against Baba Ramdev. She did not become PM after being elected because of these thugs. What do they want now?
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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6/6/2011 3:03:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 1:02:34 AM, FREEDO wrote:
After all my political changes I have never believed in democracy until very recently. I've decided that I like rules but hate rulers and equal political power for everyone is the way to solve that.

Gods kingdom is ruled by a king, not a democracy- Gods word teaches this as well- A house divided will not stand--als0--They promise you freedom, yet themselves are still slaves to corruption. Showing the govts of men do not work,have never worked, or will ever work.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/6/2011 6:47:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 4:04:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:50:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.


The government itself is the group that is bullsh!tting. I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. They are all the same thing.

Though this isn't really what the discussion is about, i can't help but notice you are not responding to the arguments. You say that govt. is sh!tting the people. It is really not saying anything till you provide a measure, a standard pole to measure the level of sh!tting. Obviously in every system of governance, there would some some people who dissent. But we need a system, so you'll have to say- democracy is bad and my system is better because - and you continue.

I don't need to set a standard. Society depends on the exploitation of others. If one group/person/etc isn't exploiting another, or sh!tting on another, society will not run.

Though people ideally envision forms of government where this sort of thing does not happen, it is impossible. The ability to manipulate other people can not possibly be made illegal.

A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All governments derive their authority from the people.

Whether the voting process is officially sanctioned, and backed by the state is ultimately irrelevant. The mob rules whether or not the government accepts this or not. Whenever people understand this, revolution happens.

This is not true. Here is what Gaddafi did in Libya:He killed the millions of people of his regime, in fact executes the dissidents publically, and the executions are broadcasted on state television channels. The dissenters are the people who dare to question his regime, and were brought to notice by the extensive surveillance system set up by him..." This is an example of what fascism has a power of becoming. The mob does not rule in this instance.


Yeah, and if the great majority of the people stepped up and said they weren't going to tolerate this kind of sh!t, then what would happen?


All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.

Chocolates?

I love chocolate like a woman on the rag.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

lulwat?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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6/6/2011 6:53:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I believe this comedy sketch details the specifics of who gains power in our democracy.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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6/6/2011 8:09:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:11:10 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?

You do know that we don't live in a democracy right? And that it's one of the most inaccurately used term in political discourse? That our founders were afraid of democracy?

Republic works until they stop following the Constitution, now we are drifting much more near a pure democracy which has (and is using) the power to destroy personal liberties. Just because that's what the un-informed majority wants.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/6/2011 10:40:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:38:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:11:10 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/6/2011 12:39:29 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I have believed in democracy as far as I have developed some sort of political opinion. But lately, owing to some circumstances, I have been questioning- not exactly its legitimacy, but there is a question.

What can a govt. do when the mass asks for something completely unreasonable?

You do know that we don't live in a democracy right? And that it's one of the most inaccurately used term in political discourse? That our founders were afraid of democracy?

I am not an American. I believe I live in a pretty solid democratic institution.

India's poverty is largely due to the government's economic regulator influence. It takes forever for anybody to try to start a business, trade, or invest there. The Heritage foundation index gives your nation a "mostly not free" economic freedom index rating. India's "solid democratic institution" has killed millions of people. Good job!! But by all means keep doing your duty as an Indian citizen who is also a communist, and continue to vote for government policies that kill Indians.
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baggins
Posts: 855
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6/7/2011 12:45:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 10:40:38 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:38:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I am not an American. I believe I live in a pretty solid democratic institution.

India's poverty is largely due to the government's economic regulator influence. It takes forever for anybody to try to start a business, trade, or invest there. The Heritage foundation index gives your nation a "mostly not free" economic freedom index rating. India's "solid democratic institution" has killed millions of people. Good job!! But by all means keep doing your duty as an Indian citizen who is also a communist, and continue to vote for government policies that kill Indians.

It is not due to the regulator action in itself. It is due to corruption in built into the regulatory mechanism. There is no mechanism to You can check decisions taken by bureaucracy. You can establish a business very fast if you have the right connections and can grease correct palms. Unfortunately that kills merit.

Having an independent strong system which can investigate the politicians and bureaucrats is one of the key demand of Baba Ramdev and Anna Hazare.

I support strong regulations in economy. But the agencies must be compelled to answer YES or NO within fixed time. They should not have the power to keep your applications hanging for infinite time. And there should be a transparent mechanism to question the decisions.

I support strong regulations in economy. We cannot afford a 600 billion dollar payout.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/7/2011 1:45:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 12:45:49 AM, baggins wrote:
At 6/6/2011 10:40:38 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/6/2011 3:38:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I am not an American. I believe I live in a pretty solid democratic institution.

India's poverty is largely due to the government's economic regulator influence. It takes forever for anybody to try to start a business, trade, or invest there. The Heritage foundation index gives your nation a "mostly not free" economic freedom index rating. India's "solid democratic institution" has killed millions of people. Good job!! But by all means keep doing your duty as an Indian citizen who is also a communist, and continue to vote for government policies that kill Indians.

It is not due to the regulator action in itself. It is due to corruption in built into the regulatory mechanism. There is no mechanism to You can check decisions taken by bureaucracy. You can establish a business very fast if you have the right connections and can grease correct palms. Unfortunately that kills merit.

Why have the regulatory commission in the first place? If I want to stop a business, why should I have to go through tons of red tape just to start up a business? In Hong Kong you can get a business the day you decide you want to open one.

And the fact that it takes so long for regulators to go through the paperwork is the really reason that you need to have connections with the bureaucracy in order to get a business.

Having an independent strong system which can investigate the politicians and bureaucrats is one of the key demand of Baba Ramdev and Anna Hazare.

I don't know too much about the Indian government. Hong Kong seems to have a good system anti-corruption policy. The fact is baggins stated that India has a good democracy system, while you clearly contradict everything you said. While we're at it you also have a high corruption index. Governments aren't going to get less corrupt over night by some 'independent strong system that investigate the politicians'. My guess if it even does get passed, it will be very weak, acting more to satisfy others rather than any legitimate purpose.

I support strong regulations in economy. But the agencies must be compelled to answer YES or NO within fixed time. They should not have the power to keep your applications hanging for infinite time. And there should be a transparent mechanism to question the decisions.

I support strong regulations in economy. We cannot afford a 600 billion dollar payout.

Basically your stating that good government is good, even though evidence seems to show contrary to that. And you still want these government officials who are knowingly corrupt to regulate the economy?

The free market is a self-regulating mechanism. You don't need government bureaucrats controlling it.
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gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/7/2011 3:20:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 12:53:14 PM, baggins wrote:
BTW, I do not think Baba Ramdev's demands are that dubious. Hang the corrupt was just an extreme part. Demanding some action against tax-defaulters is quite fair. Baba was unlikely to insist on hanging - had the other major demands been met. Though I don't like him that much. I think he is a bit unpredictable. I prefer Anna. His method is more direct, simple and it is easier to understand him.

I think he's just hiding behind the facade of corruption because it's such a trending topic nowadays. He might be concerned, but he doesn't really know how the whole 'satyagraha' thing works. Almost every time he's on TV, he's like- 'MAHAKRANTI hogi, (in Caps) and goes round and round and never explains what he's proposing.

Because seriously, what Are his demands? This one article is bang on to what I think on his demands:
http://www.hindustantimes.com...


Still Congress is much better than BJP on corruption. Just see what is going on in Karnataka. The government should sack Kapil Sibal though.

I strongly disagree with people who are blaming Sonia Gandhi for action against Baba Ramdev. She did not become PM after being elected because of these thugs. What do they want now?

Actions against the baba were everything that shouldn't have been, it was an act of utter desperation. In fact, I thought democracy provided a shield against that, but apparently not. Still, after this everything is going the government's way, isn't it? Anna started his one-day-fast, focus shifted from the lokpal bill, Kapil Sibal says the drafting committee will sit even if the civil society boycotts it. And the resultant draft cannot be a very balanced one, can it? In fact, I can't decide if the action was a stroke of genius or that of utter desperation. But sonia will always be blamed for anything that is wrong with the congress, she's a woman, a foreigner, and speaks less. She's the easy target.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/7/2011 3:25:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:03:56 PM, kjw47 wrote:
At 6/6/2011 1:02:34 AM, FREEDO wrote:
After all my political changes I have never believed in democracy until very recently. I've decided that I like rules but hate rulers and equal political power for everyone is the way to solve that.

Gods kingdom is ruled by a king, not a democracy- Gods word teaches this as well- A house divided will not stand--als0--They promise you freedom, yet themselves are still slaves to corruption. Showing the govts of men do not work,have never worked, or will ever work.

Just that's why Libya is such a peaceful state.
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/7/2011 3:46:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 6:47:57 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 4:04:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:50:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.


The government itself is the group that is bullsh!tting. I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. They are all the same thing.

Though this isn't really what the discussion is about, i can't help but notice you are not responding to the arguments. You say that govt. is sh!tting the people. It is really not saying anything till you provide a measure, a standard pole to measure the level of sh!tting. Obviously in every system of governance, there would some some people who dissent. But we need a system, so you'll have to say- democracy is bad and my system is better because - and you continue.

I don't need to set a standard. Society depends on the exploitation of others. If one group/person/etc isn't exploiting another, or sh!tting on another, society will not run.

That is how a society works. But we need a system to protect the exploited too. A system that can guarantee that the state doesn't start sitting on these exploited, or that the exploited don't become a sect. There always have to be a balance between the way a society should run ideally and the way it would run if the rules were not in place.

Though people ideally envision forms of government where this sort of thing does not happen, it is impossible. The ability to manipulate other people can not possibly be made illegal.

But it is illegal. At least beyond a level.

A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All governments derive their authority from the people.

Whether the voting process is officially sanctioned, and backed by the state is ultimately irrelevant. The mob rules whether or not the government accepts this or not. Whenever people understand this, revolution happens.

This is not true. Here is what Gaddafi did in Libya:He killed the millions of people of his regime, in fact executes the dissidents publically, and the executions are broadcasted on state television channels. The dissenters are the people who dare to question his regime, and were brought to notice by the extensive surveillance system set up by him..." This is an example of what fascism has a power of becoming. The mob does not rule in this instance.


Yeah, and if the great majority of the people stepped up and said they weren't going to tolerate this kind of sh!t, then what would happen?

http://www.google.co.in... ?

and then democracy?




All this sh!t is in the minds of the people. They feed you lies laced with laxatives, and when you run to the toilet, they sneak in and steal all your chocolate.

Chocolates?

I love chocolate like a woman on the rag.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

lulwat?

I just wanted to use this phrase somewhere. I never have:D
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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6/7/2011 6:06:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago

India's poverty is largely due to the government's economic regulator influence. It takes forever for anybody to try to start a business, trade, or invest there.

http://www.google.co.in...

http://ia.rediff.com...

No it doesn't. Yes, government has a influence, but it is limited. India's poverty is not due to 'government's economic regulator influence'. It is due to a multiple factors, majority of which include social policies, as opposed to economic. And yes, corruption is a major factor still, but as Baggins pointed out, we're on a way to counter that. The lokpal bill under way will go a long way to bureaucratic surveillance.

The Heritage foundation index gives your nation a "mostly not free" economic freedom index rating.

And that's such a great Index to go by, is it? It assumes that economic freedom leads to economic growth, which itself is a subject of debate.Switzerland, for example, has a pretty good rating-but formidable growth, while China and India, too, have poorer ratings but better growth.

The methodology for compiling the list has changed twice, as UAE pointed out. Also, as long as we are on the subject of UAE, the assessment of UAE's economic status by the Heritage contradicted the assessment from other international indicators like Transparency International and Moody's.

http://www.bi-me.com...

The indicators used are so misleading that the result is bound to be biased.

http://mises.org...

India's "solid democratic institution" has killed millions of people. Good job!! But by all means keep doing your duty as an Indian citizen who is also a communist, and continue to vote for government policies that kill Indians.


How? How has the economic policies of our govt. killed millions of people?
baggins
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6/7/2011 8:32:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 1:45:51 AM, darkkermit wrote:
Why have the regulatory commission in the first place? If I want to stop a business, why should I have to go through tons of red tape just to start up a business?

Because absence of regulation would lead to:
1. Greedy big managers who acquire short term gains (and hence big bonus for the managers) putting long term sustainability of business in question.
2. Outright fraud.
3. Loss to climate.

A good example of first two is the American housing saga - which almost lead the economy of the whole world down. Finally - it required a bailout from government of over 600 billion dollars. US was also saved by the fact that all its debt are in dollars - so devaluation of dollar did not affect the debt amount. In any case, US is still facing a high chance of a stagnant economy or simple recession. India cannot afford it.

Climate loss in inevitable because the businessmen gains immediately while the whole society pays later.

I don't know too much about the Indian government. Hong Kong seems to have a good system anti-corruption policy.

What I would like is something like Hong Kong. A single window regulation system which quickly checks whether you are obeying the laws and gives you a guaranteed YES or NO within a day (OK a week will be fine).

The fact is baggins stated that India has a good democracy system,

Yeah, the government represents all the sections of the society. Elections are held regularly. Lots of political debates take place. We get a chance to kick out government every five years. We enjoy that a lot. In some cases, we do spare them - and give them another chance.

while you clearly contradict everything you said. While we're at it you also have a high corruption index. Governments aren't going to get less corrupt over night...

That is the big problem. However, I think things have improved a lot over past 2 decades.

by some 'independent strong system that investigate the politicians'. My guess if it even does get passed, it will be very weak, acting more to satisfy others rather than any legitimate purpose.

That might happen. However, Indians are quite serious and angry about corruption right now. If the government takes the situation lightly - it will marching out of office in 2014. So I will not lose my optimism for the time being.

The free market is a self-regulating mechanism. You don't need government bureaucrats controlling it.

A completely free market can lead to recessions and economic misery also. Self regulation is a myth. Do explain what happened to housing loans, if I am wrong. Or do you think the self regulation would have kicked in had the government not gone in for the bail-out.

I personally prefer a capitalist system with well defined regulation in most cases.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
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6/7/2011 8:54:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:20:25 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
I think he's just hiding behind the facade of corruption because it's such a trending topic nowadays. He might be concerned, but he doesn't really know how the whole 'satyagraha' thing works. Almost every time he's on TV, he's like- 'MAHAKRANTI hogi, (in Caps) and goes round and round and never explains what he's proposing.

I agree, he is not much on the scales of logic. Yet he is a very capable mobilizer of people's opinion. And the core around which he is mobilizing people is corruption.

Because seriously, what Are his demands? This one article is bang on to what I think on his demands:
http://www.hindustantimes.com...

I am not too worried about details of his agenda - as long the real work on the bill is done by Bhushans, Kejriwal and group.

Actions against the baba were everything that shouldn't have been, it was an act of utter desperation...

It was an act of idiocy. Baba had given a written assurance that he will call of his fast and then back tracked (he is low on logic). He had assembled 50,000 people in a rally after taking permission for only 5,000. I think Manmohan Singh should have addressed the people directly, explained what he is doing about corruption, and revealed the broken promise by Baba Ramdev. Letting Kapil Sibal handle the show is simply stupid.

In fact, I thought democracy provided a shield against that, but apparently not. Still, after this everything is going the government's way, isn't it? Anna started his one-day-fast, focus shifted from the lokpal bill, Kapil Sibal says the drafting committee will sit even if the civil society boycotts it. And the resultant draft cannot be a very balanced one, can it?

Maybe it is better that way. It is the task of the government to formulate the bill anyway. In case they try to dilute it too much, we are not sleeping. Baba and his supporters are still angry.

I don't care that much if Prime Minister is covered by Lok Pal or not. That is just symbolic.

To understand how much Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev have achieved, remember the fact that Lokpal bill has been hanging for 46 years!
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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6/7/2011 12:15:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/7/2011 3:46:22 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 6:47:57 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 4:04:33 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:50:36 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:39:16 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 6/6/2011 2:06:48 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Democracy is a load of sh!t.

What is democracy? People recognizing the legitimacy of whatever group happens to be bullsh!tting them at the time.

If you think that's democracy, you don't have ANY idea. The fact that this question is in existence, the fact that democracy gives the right to question is the most powerful tool of a democracy. People NEVER accept the party in power. They choose it, but its every decision is questioned. The party in opposition never sits still, and is always criticizing the party in power for everything.


The government itself is the group that is bullsh!tting. I'm not talking about Democrats and Republicans. They are all the same thing.

Though this isn't really what the discussion is about, i can't help but notice you are not responding to the arguments. You say that govt. is sh!tting the people. It is really not saying anything till you provide a measure, a standard pole to measure the level of sh!tting. Obviously in every system of governance, there would some some people who dissent. But we need a system, so you'll have to say- democracy is bad and my system is better because - and you continue.

I don't need to set a standard. Society depends on the exploitation of others. If one group/person/etc isn't exploiting another, or sh!tting on another, society will not run.

That is how a society works. But we need a system to protect the exploited too. A system that can guarantee that the state doesn't start sitting on these exploited, or that the exploited don't become a sect. There always have to be a balance between the way a society should run ideally and the way it would run if the rules were not in place.

There are systems that protect the exploited to some extent. You can't completely stop exploitation though.


Though people ideally envision forms of government where this sort of thing does not happen, it is impossible. The ability to manipulate other people can not possibly be made illegal.

But it is illegal. At least beyond a level.

The economy depends on manipulation. The government relies on manipulation to keep power.

Besides the obvious, every day interaction with other people makes use of manipulation in some form or another.

Slavery is rampant here in America, yet it in the law it is abolished.


A fascist dictatorship is just as much of a democracy as a Republic.

This is so wrong. According to what definition is a fascist dictatorship even remotedly similar to a democracy?

All governments derive their authority from the people.

Whether the voting process is officially sanctioned, and backed by the state is ultimately irrelevant. The mob rules whether or not the government accepts this or not. Whenever people understand this, revolution happens.

This is not true. Here is what Gaddafi did in Libya:He killed the millions of people of his regime, in fact executes the dissidents publically, and the executions are broadcasted on state television channels. The dissenters are the people who dare to question his regime, and were brought to notice by the extensive surveillance system set up by him..." This is an example of what fascism has a power of becoming. The mob does not rule in this instance.


Yeah, and if the great majority of the people stepped up and said they weren't going to tolerate this kind of sh!t, then what would happen?

http://www.google.co.in... ?

and then democracy?

I'm saying that Democracy was always there, the people just learned to put it to use. After the dust settles, a government might be put up to just remind everyone that, "Hey, yeah, this is a democracy.. Just so you all know.", and call itself a democracy.. but eh, who knows.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/7/2011 12:55:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Even if you advocate complete autonomy, how do you plan on applying this ideal to the masses? The right of self-ownership is/could only be a right if people AGREE that it's a right, which I'm sure requires some sort of democratic acknowledgment.

I hate to pull a Cosmic ("Everything is absurd" zzZZzzZZzz) but it's just as easy to criticize any other avocation as it is to criticize democracy.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/7/2011 12:57:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/6/2011 3:11:10 AM, innomen wrote:
And that it's one of the most inaccurately used term in political discourse?

I had a BRILLIANT poli sci teacher who emphasized this profusely over the semester. It begs the question though if a term without a clear definition can be used inaccurately.
President of DDO