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USSR delusion?

BenYadangsi
Posts: 16
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6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.
2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.
"Fascism is Capitalism in decay" - Vladimir Lenin
"Democracy is the road to socialism" - Karl Marx
"Prisons are universities of crime, maintained by the state." - Peter Kropotkin
"If God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him." - Mikhail Bakunin
"The freedom of all is essential to my freedom." - Mikhail Bakunin
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/25/2011 6:06:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.
2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

We think it because we were taught that way for at least half a century. The ruling party was the communist party, and there are apparently distinctions between soviet communism, and how we define communism in general..
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/25/2011 6:16:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Same reason people say America is a capitalist society, even though it has socialist programs (Ex: Schools, Ambulance, Firefighters, Municipal Water, Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid, licensing requirements, etc.).
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Grape
Posts: 989
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6/25/2011 11:19:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.

There was an elaborate command economy. How was that not socialist?

2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

Yes, it was not pure communism. It was loosely based on communist ideology.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/25/2011 12:36:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 11:19:44 AM, Grape wrote:
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.

There was an elaborate command economy. How was that not socialist?

2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

Yes, it was not pure communism. It was loosely based on communist ideology.

Correct, they started with communist ideals, and still held them as the official line, but as each communist policy failed they made compromises, and had to accommodate the failures. Some of the leaders were genuinely baffled by the failure of collectivism and the famine that resulted. The more they lost as a result of the communist failure the more they built up their central government and its authority. They still held onto the communist ideology, but in practice were forced to abandon it in its purity if they were to feed their people.
Merda
Posts: 322
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6/25/2011 12:39:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.

It was definitely socialist. The fvck are you talking about?

2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

They followed the Marxist conception of history. It stated that before a stateless and classless society could come about, a socialist state would have to be established to destroy the remnants of bourgeouise society. The people who were in power for that period never wanted to give up that power though.
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Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/25/2011 12:42:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.
2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

It was a Marxist state.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

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BenYadangsi
Posts: 16
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6/26/2011 11:35:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/25/2011 12:39:50 PM, Merda wrote:
It was definitely socialist. The fvck are you talking about?

Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. In the Soviet Union, the government owned the means of production. So, the USSR wasn't truly Socialist.
"Fascism is Capitalism in decay" - Vladimir Lenin
"Democracy is the road to socialism" - Karl Marx
"Prisons are universities of crime, maintained by the state." - Peter Kropotkin
"If God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him." - Mikhail Bakunin
"The freedom of all is essential to my freedom." - Mikhail Bakunin
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/26/2011 11:39:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/26/2011 11:35:51 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
At 6/25/2011 12:39:50 PM, Merda wrote:
It was definitely socialist. The fvck are you talking about?

Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. In the Soviet Union, the government owned the means of production.
"Workers own the means of production" doesn't even mean anything. There is nothing in the class "Worker" that causes joint action and joint preference, creating a situation where the plural "Workers" can be said to own something as "Workers."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/26/2011 11:42:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For the same reason, there is no such thing as "The workers." There is Bill Gates with his work, and you with your (Much less in-demand) work. They are different sorts of work, and you are different people, with no common ground on which to have joint ownership. You never once voluntarily engaged in a joint venture (unless you're a Microsoft shareholder). You may have had a transaction with him but that's a different story.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/27/2011 4:21:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/26/2011 11:35:51 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
At 6/25/2011 12:39:50 PM, Merda wrote:
It was definitely socialist. The fvck are you talking about?

Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. In the Soviet Union, the government owned the means of production. So, the USSR wasn't truly Socialist.

In their minds the state and the people were one and the same. That's why the prefix "The People's..." was before most titles, and the word "comrade" meant equal member in the cause of the revolution.

There is a misconception that it was completely totalitarian, and except during the Stalin era it really wasn't; the Politburo had significant power. Also the various titles at the top were of less meaning than the personalities that held them. It's also somewhat important to note that the leaders never really accumulated personal wealth in comparison to other leaders of similar stature.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/27/2011 4:31:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/27/2011 4:21:02 AM, innomen wrote:
At 6/26/2011 11:35:51 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
At 6/25/2011 12:39:50 PM, Merda wrote:
It was definitely socialist. The fvck are you talking about?

Socialism is when the workers own the means of production. In the Soviet Union, the government owned the means of production. So, the USSR wasn't truly Socialist.

In their minds the state and the people were one and the same. That's why the prefix "The People's..." was before most titles, and the word "comrade" meant equal member in the cause of the revolution.

There is a misconception that it was completely totalitarian, and except during the Stalin era it really wasn't; the Politburo had significant power.
That's a rebuttal of autocratic, not totalitarian.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
BenYadangsi
Posts: 16
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7/2/2011 6:04:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/27/2011 4:21:02 AM, innomen wrote:
In their minds the state and the people were one and the same. That's why the prefix "The People's..." was before most titles, and the word "comrade" meant equal member in the cause of the revolution.

There is a misconception that it was completely totalitarian, and except during the Stalin era it really wasn't; the Politburo had significant power. Also the various titles at the top were of less meaning than the personalities that held them. It's also somewhat important to note that the leaders never really accumulated personal wealth in comparison to other leaders of similar stature.

I'm sorry, but there is a thing called propaganda and it can really confuse people into thinking something like that. Lenin himself said that he wasn't creating the Marxist-socialist nation because as a traditional Marxist, he thought that the revolution would take hold in the place where capitalism is greatest, which at that time was Germany. The use of "the people's" and "comrade" were made to have people believe it was socialist, when it wasn't. Socialism's core philosophy is that the workplace should be collectively and democratically owned by the employed, rather than by the single owner. By the ownership of the workplace being transferred from the workers to the government, which was controlled by the Russian right-wing Leninist party (In old Russian politics, the Leftists were the Marxists and the Rightists were the Leninist), they have gone against the core philosophy of Socialism, and therefore, are not Socialist.
"Fascism is Capitalism in decay" - Vladimir Lenin
"Democracy is the road to socialism" - Karl Marx
"Prisons are universities of crime, maintained by the state." - Peter Kropotkin
"If God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him." - Mikhail Bakunin
"The freedom of all is essential to my freedom." - Mikhail Bakunin
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/2/2011 11:06:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/24/2011 10:24:57 PM, BenYadangsi wrote:
Why is it that so many people think the USSR was a Communist state when,
1) It wasn't even Communist, nor even Socialist.
2) It is impossible to have a Communist state because Communism is a stateless society.

Oh shut up.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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7/2/2011 2:58:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/2/2011 6:04:14 AM, BenYadangsi wrote:
At 6/27/2011 4:21:02 AM, innomen wrote:
In their minds the state and the people were one and the same. That's why the prefix "The People's..." was before most titles, and the word "comrade" meant equal member in the cause of the revolution.

There is a misconception that it was completely totalitarian, and except during the Stalin era it really wasn't; the Politburo had significant power. Also the various titles at the top were of less meaning than the personalities that held them. It's also somewhat important to note that the leaders never really accumulated personal wealth in comparison to other leaders of similar stature.

I'm sorry, but there is a thing called propaganda and it can really confuse people into thinking something like that. Lenin himself said that he wasn't creating the Marxist-socialist nation because as a traditional Marxist, he thought that the revolution would take hold in the place where capitalism is greatest, which at that time was Germany. The use of "the people's" and "comrade" were made to have people believe it was socialist, when it wasn't. Socialism's core philosophy is that the workplace should be collectively and democratically owned by the employed, rather than by the single owner. By the ownership of the workplace being transferred from the workers to the government, which was controlled by the Russian right-wing Leninist party (In old Russian politics, the Leftists were the Marxists and the Rightists were the Leninist), they have gone against the core philosophy of Socialism, and therefore, are not Socialist.

You're wrong all over the place here. I'd be happy to debate you on anything concerning the Soviet Union; it's probably the most use i could make out of my degree at this point. You do know that i was at the University of Moscow in '83 as an exchange student studying Sovietology. A completely useless endeavor in practical terms, but the most eye opening experience you could imagine.
BenYadangsi
Posts: 16
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7/2/2011 8:43:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/2/2011 2:58:07 PM, innomen wrote:
You're wrong all over the place here. I'd be happy to debate you on anything concerning the Soviet Union; it's probably the most use i could make out of my degree at this point. You do know that i was at the University of Moscow in '83 as an exchange student studying Sovietology. A completely useless endeavor in practical terms, but the most eye opening experience you could imagine.

I'm sorry; I didn't notice your degree. I would be happy if you would teach me more, because I am very interested in learning. I do not feel confortable debating a subject I am not an expert in.
"Fascism is Capitalism in decay" - Vladimir Lenin
"Democracy is the road to socialism" - Karl Marx
"Prisons are universities of crime, maintained by the state." - Peter Kropotkin
"If God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him." - Mikhail Bakunin
"The freedom of all is essential to my freedom." - Mikhail Bakunin