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The Green Party

Tiel
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6/30/2011 11:49:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Topic: Hello everyone. I haven't seen any forums about the Green Party. I do support the Green Party's agenda. How do some of you feel about the Green Party? What do you like or dislike about their agenda?

Thank you all for your time.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/1/2011 12:39:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
A lot of environmental activism is 'scare tactics' and based on very little substance. I wish environmentalists would embrace capitalism as well. Very few environmentalists are also capitalists.

Environmental protection is often based on property rights. If land, air, or body of water is not claimed, then the incentive to overgraze and overuse the land increases. If you own the land, one is substantial less likely to let the land deteriote, since he or she will bare the costs.

Some property rights are difficult to define, so this can complicate the matter. There's also the problem with run-off as well.

The issue that we are running out of resources is peculiar. If you honestly believe that we are overusing resources and material, and we are going to run out, then the best option for you is to buy these resources, store them, and sell them later at a future profit. However, apparently buying commodities is a risky investment.

Green energy sounds nice in theory, but it is more expensive then other types of energy like coal and petroleum. Also, solar and wind energy can only work at certain times of the day. Perhaps there will be a day when "green energy" becomes affordable, but not now. In any case, it isn't worth seriously subsidizing. Nuclear energy is perhaps the efficient source of energy, once the price of petroleum increases.
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SuperRobotWars
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7/1/2011 9:59:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 12:39:43 AM, darkkermit wrote:
A lot of environmental activism is 'scare tactics' and based on very little substance. I wish environmentalists would embrace capitalism as well. Very few environmentalists are also capitalists.

Environmental protection is often based on property rights. If land, air, or body of water is not claimed, then the incentive to overgraze and overuse the land increases. If you own the land, one is substantial less likely to let the land deteriote, since he or she will bare the costs.

Some property rights are difficult to define, so this can complicate the matter. There's also the problem with run-off as well.

The issue that we are running out of resources is peculiar. If you honestly believe that we are overusing resources and material, and we are going to run out, then the best option for you is to buy these resources, store them, and sell them later at a future profit. However, apparently buying commodities is a risky investment.

Green energy sounds nice in theory, but it is more expensive then other types of energy like coal and petroleum. Also, solar and wind energy can only work at certain times of the day. Perhaps there will be a day when "green energy" becomes affordable, but not now. In any case, it isn't worth seriously subsidizing. Nuclear energy is perhaps the efficient source of energy, once the price of petroleum increases.

This.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Thaddeus
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7/1/2011 10:01:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
SRW, saying "this" is OK once in a while, but when it becomes your primary method of political commentary, one starts to wonder if you ever have something to add...
BennyW
Posts: 698
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7/1/2011 11:01:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, I see them as socialists who's stated purpose it to protect the environment. I don't have a problem with the concept of third parties, in fact I have voted third party several times recently, just not the Green Party.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
SuperRobotWars
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7/1/2011 12:22:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 10:01:04 AM, Thaddeus wrote:
SRW, saying "this" is OK once in a while, but when it becomes your primary method of political commentary, one starts to wonder if you ever have something to add...

Sometimes I do but whenever the frog with a machine-gun answers an question, there tends to be no way to top it.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/1/2011 3:26:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 12:39:43 AM, darkkermit wrote:
A lot of environmental activism is 'scare tactics' and based on very little substance. I wish environmentalists would embrace capitalism as well. Very few environmentalists are also capitalists.

Environmental protection is often based on property rights. If land, air, or body of water is not claimed, then the incentive to overgraze and overuse the land increases. If you own the land, one is substantial less likely to let the land deteriote, since he or she will bare the costs.

Some property rights are difficult to define, so this can complicate the matter. There's also the problem with run-off as well.

The issue that we are running out of resources is peculiar. If you honestly believe that we are overusing resources and material, and we are going to run out, then the best option for you is to buy these resources, store them, and sell them later at a future profit. However, apparently buying commodities is a risky investment.

Green energy sounds nice in theory, but it is more expensive then other types of energy like coal and petroleum. Also, solar and wind energy can only work at certain times of the day. Perhaps there will be a day when "green energy" becomes affordable, but not now. In any case, it isn't worth seriously subsidizing. Nuclear energy is perhaps the efficient source of energy, once the price of petroleum increases.

Reply: I would have to say that I understand you feelings and your logic, though I personally disagree.

My perspective: I believe that renewable energy or "green energy", is something that should be developed further to decrease our dependency on the market to survive. I think that capitalism creates a system of unbalanced power and market dependency for survival. If people don't need the market, then the market doesn't hold any power over them. In my opinion, this would be a revolutionary change in how politics evolve. Combining all the different green energy applications together seems likely to be the most efficient and desirable transition from the fossil fuel era, into the green energy era. Some things could be ran off of one kind of green energy, some things off others.

Have you ever seen an air car? Things like this can change our future. The designs can become more stylish as people demand it. But here is a link to what I speak of.

http://www.enn.com...

There are lots of ways in which the human race can develop alternative energy technologies to replace fossil fuels.

The Green Party should be promoting these ideas to the mainstream. This would gain a following of support from people who are more green minded.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
innomen
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7/1/2011 3:35:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 3:26:34 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/1/2011 12:39:43 AM, darkkermit wrote:
A lot of environmental activism is 'scare tactics' and based on very little substance. I wish environmentalists would embrace capitalism as well. Very few environmentalists are also capitalists.

Environmental protection is often based on property rights. If land, air, or body of water is not claimed, then the incentive to overgraze and overuse the land increases. If you own the land, one is substantial less likely to let the land deteriote, since he or she will bare the costs.

Some property rights are difficult to define, so this can complicate the matter. There's also the problem with run-off as well.

The issue that we are running out of resources is peculiar. If you honestly believe that we are overusing resources and material, and we are going to run out, then the best option for you is to buy these resources, store them, and sell them later at a future profit. However, apparently buying commodities is a risky investment.

Green energy sounds nice in theory, but it is more expensive then other types of energy like coal and petroleum. Also, solar and wind energy can only work at certain times of the day. Perhaps there will be a day when "green energy" becomes affordable, but not now. In any case, it isn't worth seriously subsidizing. Nuclear energy is perhaps the efficient source of energy, once the price of petroleum increases.

Reply: I would have to say that I understand you feelings and your logic, though I personally disagree.

My perspective: I believe that renewable energy or "green energy", is something that should be developed further to decrease our dependency on the market to survive. I think that capitalism creates a system of unbalanced power and market dependency for survival. If people don't need the market, then the market doesn't hold any power over them. In my opinion, this would be a revolutionary change in how politics evolve. Combining all the different green energy applications together seems likely to be the most efficient and desirable transition from the fossil fuel era, into the green energy era. Some things could be ran off of one kind of green energy, some things off others.

Have you ever seen an air car? Things like this can change our future. The designs can become more stylish as people demand it. But here is a link to what I speak of.

http://www.enn.com...

There are lots of ways in which the human race can develop alternative energy technologies to replace fossil fuels.

The Green Party should be promoting these ideas to the mainstream. This would gain a following of support from people who are more green minded.

from your link: "Concern was raised among environmentalists that the potential of millions more cars on the planet wasn't helpful." They're carbon neutral and use far less resources in creating, then why would they have an objection?

I think it's that attitude that irritates me about the greenies.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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7/1/2011 4:06:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 3:26:34 PM, Tiel wrote:

Reply: I would have to say that I understand you feelings and your logic, though I personally disagree.

My perspective: I believe that renewable energy or "green energy", is something that should be developed further to decrease our dependency on the market to survive.

Why would "green energy" solve that problem. Your still dependent on green energy. You also don't need to be dependent on the market. You can strip naked and live in the forest, hunting and gathering for survival. However, your standard of living is likely to decrease significantly.

I think that capitalism creates a system of unbalanced power and market dependency for survival.

Again, you don't need it but it increases your standard of living. Also how do you describe an 'unbalanced power'? What is meant by 'power'? This is a relevant term.

If people don't need the market, then the market doesn't hold any power over them.

Again, this is relevant. Same as above And it also true, that the markets increases one's wealth, since trade increases wealth for both parties.

In my opinion, this would be a revolutionary change in how politics evolve. Combining all the different green energy applications together seems likely to be the most efficient and desirable transition from the fossil fuel era, into the green energy era. Some things could be ran off of one kind of green energy, some things off others.

I do not deny that green energy could be valuable in the future. However, there is no purpose of turning to green energy now If we already have more affordable sources of energy.


Have you ever seen an air car? Things like this can change our future. The designs can become more stylish as people demand it. But here is a link to what I speak of.

http://www.enn.com...


It's actually not that special. Pneumatics has been around for centuries.

There are lots of ways in which the human race can develop alternative energy technologies to replace fossil fuels.

I don't disagree with you. The push for alternative energy is not essential, especially since nuclear energy can replace petroleum, and coal and natural gases are still plentiful.

The Green Party should be promoting these ideas to the mainstream. This would gain a following of support from people who are more green minded.

No they shouldn't since the government would essentially be subsidizing wasteful projects. Even though they did it anyways.

Robert Murphy explains green energy really well:
Open borders debate:
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FREEDO
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7/1/2011 4:35:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just so everyone knows, despite the name, environmentalism is not the Green Party's sole of primary agenda. I'd say the defining characteristic of the Green Party is that they are for Direct-Democracy. I support that.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
innomen
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7/1/2011 4:36:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 4:35:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Just so everyone knows, despite the name, environmentalism is not the Green Party's sole of primary agenda. I'd say the defining characteristic of the Green Party is that they are for Direct-Democracy. I support that.

Direct Democracy sounds a lot like mob rule.
FREEDO
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7/1/2011 4:41:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 4:36:49 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/1/2011 4:35:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Just so everyone knows, despite the name, environmentalism is not the Green Party's sole of primary agenda. I'd say the defining characteristic of the Green Party is that they are for Direct-Democracy. I support that.

Direct Democracy sounds a lot like mob rule.

It's equal political power. And it's not "mob rule" because the majority of people agree on a variety of individual rights.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/1/2011 6:04:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 4:35:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Just so everyone knows, despite the name, environmentalism is not the Green Party's sole of primary agenda. I'd say the defining characteristic of the Green Party is that they are for Direct-Democracy. I support that.

Reply: This is the most valuable and accurate post that I have received. You are one that does fully understand the agenda of The Green Party.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Tiel
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7/1/2011 6:11:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/1/2011 4:41:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/1/2011 4:36:49 PM, innomen wrote:
At 7/1/2011 4:35:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Just so everyone knows, despite the name, environmentalism is not the Green Party's sole of primary agenda. I'd say the defining characteristic of the Green Party is that they are for Direct-Democracy. I support that.

Direct Democracy sounds a lot like mob rule.

It's equal political power. And it's not "mob rule" because the majority of people agree on a variety of individual rights.

Reply: This is very accurate and logically correct in my opinion. It seems that the people who are against such things, are the people who want concentrated wealth and power (power and wealth accumulation for the minority of the population). Such people are supported by both the Red and the Blue parties. Both the Red and Blue parties have started to become very similar in many aspects. The Green Party is the party that truly represents the people as a true democracy as it was advocated during the times of Jefferson. During the times when the American principles of freedom were born.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/3/2011 10:44:31 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/30/2011 11:49:54 PM, Tiel wrote:
Topic: Hello everyone. I haven't seen any forums about the Green Party. I do support the Green Party's agenda. How do some of you feel about the Green Party?:

This says it all
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
wjmelements
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7/3/2011 10:51:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The Green Party has economic views between the regulatory green stance and the socialist agenda. It's views on foreign and social policy, however, mirror the Libertarian Party.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
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7/3/2011 10:53:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/3/2011 10:44:31 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 6/30/2011 11:49:54 PM, Tiel wrote:
Topic: Hello everyone. I haven't seen any forums about the Green Party. I do support the Green Party's agenda. How do some of you feel about the Green Party?:

This says it all

That is Earth First!, not the Green Party. They remind me of Jesus Camp, except for the environment.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Tiel
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7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY

Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect his or her life and should not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY

All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM

Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature.
We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE

It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society's current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments.
We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION

Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS

Redesign our work structures to encourage employee ownership and workplace democracy. Develop new economic activities and institutions that will allow us to use our new technologies in ways that are humane, freeing, ecological and accountable, and responsive to communities.
Establish some form of basic economic security, open to all.
Move beyond the narrow "job ethic" to new definitions of "work," jobs" and "income" that reflect the changing economy.
Restructure our patterns of income distribution to reflect the wealth created by those outside the formal monetary economy: those who take responsibility for parenting, housekeeping, home gardens, community volunteer work, etc.
Restrict the size and concentrated power of corporations without discouraging superior efficiency or technological innovation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY

We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY

We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY

We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or "unmaking" all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.
Make the quality of life, rather than open-ended economic growth, the focus of future thinking.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Rockylightning
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7/9/2011 1:45:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM, Tiel wrote:
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY


1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY


Yeah, great, but the thing is that the American public is too apathetic to participate in their country. They'd rather just vote once a year and let the big boys take care of their work for them. The problem is that the elected legislature doesnt look out of the people's problems, rather they serve corporations and multi-national vested interests. Direct democracy only works (and has only worked) in societies with small populations.


2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY


I'm happy this initiative is in a political platform.


3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM


10/10. Thanks to corporations infecting the government, contemporary legislature looks out for vested corporate interests rather than the ones of the planet. The government can have ex-corporate employees in office or lobbyists inflating the government with money. Either way, at the end of the day, the trees are the ones getting chopped down.


4. NON-VIOLENCE


When we decommission our nukes...the aliens win. I agree 100% though, demilitarization is key to a peaceful planet.


5. DECENTRALIZATION


Another great reason for antinatalism. Centralized government has manifested out of the need to deal with large amounts of people and resources. Downsizing is the only way for this to work.


6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS


Side note, any Californians ever been to Zachary's pizza? It's employee ran and has the Best Pizza in CA. But in all seriousness businesses without bureaucracy seem leave their employees better off than businesses with. Employees are more likely to be paid higher wages, create higher quality goods, have higher morale, get pensions, and have less accidents. In fact I believe there is a bread company near San Francisco that is employee run.


7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY


All for this. BUT the women I am growing up with seem to have no interest in politics/school/learning/anything-besides-getting-laid (maybe its just CA?). I want to see some dedicated women out there before I can truly back this statement.


8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY


No problems


9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY


A+


10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

Another point for antinatalism. A smaller community is a more sustainable one.
Lasagna
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7/9/2011 9:07:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM, Tiel wrote:
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY


1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY

We need more people to get involved. Why don't they? Because they feel helpless. If we empower them with some privilege and responsibility, we can change their perspective on the government.

The only question is how to organize such an intricate system, but one of their next points (decentralization) may alleviate that.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY

We need education so ignorant Christians aren't controlling everything.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM

See point #10

4. NON-VIOLENCE

See point #10

5. DECENTRALIZATION

10/10

Direct-democracy is viable only when coupled with decentralization. Let communities decide their laws, instead of being controlled by the state and national levels. The only way to go "green" is to let the locals, who are living right there with the environmental damage, make the decision to strengthen their environment.

6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS

Resorting to income redistribution leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths... see point #10

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY

Gender inequality is more a function of poverty and education than anything else. Uneducated girl -> pregnancy -> single parent -> poverty and desperation -> repeat cycle for children

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY

Christians.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

#9 and #10 are really the same point: we need to stop being so senselessly greedy! It ain't the corporations' fault for our ills, it ain't the government's fault, it ain't the illuminati; it's ours! You and I buy McDonald's, SUVs, and non-local goods. We cannot avoid pollution, resource destruction, poverty, or war without changing our personal spending habits. This should be point #1, not #9/#10.

If we want to keep capitalism and stop the slow cancer of socialism, then our culture needs a makeover. People who spend lavishly should be shunned, not worshipped. Recognition and privilege ought to be extended to those who's purchasing decisions do not contribute to
- pollution/resource degradation
- non-local goods
- necessity for menial or degrading labor to fulfill
- companies that have a bad social or environmental track record

This doesn't have to add complexity to your shopping decisions; the only challenge is overcoming selfishness. Would you want to be the guy who has to sit there and take fast-food orders all day long? Well then don't make someone have to do it! Their misfortune will trickle down to you indirectly, I promise.

I hear people say "I shouldn't have to support that family through welfare; they should get jobs." Well, if they all go out and get jobs at fast-food joints then they aren't actually producing for the community. They are producing for the economy, but that isn't a REAL thing. In actuality, society is just as well off if they stayed unemployed.
Rob
Tiel
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7/9/2011 5:50:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 12:51:02 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
After reading that I'm switching my profile to green party.

Thanks for bringing this up tiel.

Reply: You are very welcome. The more people that join the cause, the better. I hope that you continue to support the Green Party in the future!
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Thaddeus
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7/9/2011 6:07:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM, Tiel wrote:
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY


1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY

Democracy is fundamentally flawed. On an island of nine dudes and one woman, the nine dudes shouldn't be able to vote to rape the woman.


2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY

Social justice sounds like a euphemism for something pretty evil. As to the second; Free markets punish prejudice. But we shouldn't make bad choices illegal. There is no right to employment.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM

Nah. Private property eliminates the tragedy of the commons. No need for brainwashing.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
Totally agree with. However, the green party made it seem like they would use some authoritarian thought control to enforce it, which is unjustifiable.

5. DECENTRALIZATION

Yes. I would say total decentralization (free markets)

6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS

Most of this sounds like total rejection of very basic economic principles. But as long as they aren't threatening to use legislation to enforce, I am happy for them to discover they are totally wrong.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY

Cool beans, as long as they don't use legislation.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY

See seven

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY

Responsibility can often be used by people to mean slavery. All responsibility must be voluntary.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

Fairly vacuous but nice rhetoric
=)

Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.
Rockylightning
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7/10/2011 12:56:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
thaddeus wrote:
Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.

Expulsion from the society or removal of certain benefits
Thaddeus
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7/10/2011 3:34:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 12:56:23 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
thaddeus wrote:
Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.


Expulsion from the society or removal of certain benefits

Then I find the whole thing disgusting.
BennyW
Posts: 698
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7/10/2011 3:37:54 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 12:56:23 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
thaddeus wrote:
Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.


Expulsion from the society or removal of certain benefits

Sounds like a step away from Fascism.
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/10/2011 2:30:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/9/2011 6:07:16 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM, Tiel wrote:
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY


1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY

Democracy is fundamentally flawed. On an island of nine dudes and one woman, the nine dudes shouldn't be able to vote to rape the woman.


2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY

Social justice sounds like a euphemism for something pretty evil. As to the second; Free markets punish prejudice. But we shouldn't make bad choices illegal. There is no right to employment.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM

Nah. Private property eliminates the tragedy of the commons. No need for brainwashing.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
Totally agree with. However, the green party made it seem like they would use some authoritarian thought control to enforce it, which is unjustifiable.

5. DECENTRALIZATION

Yes. I would say total decentralization (free markets)

6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS

Most of this sounds like total rejection of very basic economic principles. But as long as they aren't threatening to use legislation to enforce, I am happy for them to discover they are totally wrong.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY

Cool beans, as long as they don't use legislation.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY

See seven

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY

Responsibility can often be used by people to mean slavery. All responsibility must be voluntary.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

Fairly vacuous but nice rhetoric
=)

Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.

Reply: I would personally disagree. Government is the mediator on which values are upheld. If a society agrees to certain values or laws, then they must be upheld by the people of the society. People who do not like it and want to act rebellious against the values or laws, this is a threat to the values of the society. All threats must be defended against accordingly. If the man wants to not hire black people, then fight for it in the political arena. If it is accepted by society, it is no longer a threat and everyone can live happy.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/10/2011 2:57:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 3:37:54 AM, BennyW wrote:
At 7/10/2011 12:56:23 AM, Rockylightning wrote:
thaddeus wrote:
Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.


Expulsion from the society or removal of certain benefits

Sounds like a step away from Fascism.

Just....no
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
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7/10/2011 3:07:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/10/2011 2:30:49 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/9/2011 6:07:16 PM, Thaddeus wrote:
At 7/8/2011 9:21:31 PM, Tiel wrote:
THE 10 KEY VALUES OF THE GREEN PARTY


1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY

Democracy is fundamentally flawed. On an island of nine dudes and one woman, the nine dudes shouldn't be able to vote to rape the woman.

This situation is improbable and nonsensical. A more realistic scenario would be a community of 100 members, 50 male and 50 female.



2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY

Social justice sounds like a euphemism for something pretty evil. As to the second; Free markets punish prejudice. But we shouldn't make bad choices illegal. There is no right to employment.

"There is no right to employment" There should be.


3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM

Nah. Private property eliminates the tragedy of the commons. No need for brainwashing.

What?


4. NON-VIOLENCE
Totally agree with. However, the green party made it seem like they would use some authoritarian thought control to enforce it, which is unjustifiable.

The green party is the most non-authoritarian party I've read about, lol.


5. DECENTRALIZATION

Yes. I would say total decentralization (free markets).

Free markets =/= decentralized.


6. COMMUNITY BASED ECONOMICS

Most of this sounds like total rejection of very basic economic principles. But as long as they aren't threatening to use legislation to enforce, I am happy for them to discover they are totally wrong.

You contradicted yourself as community based economics coincides with point 5.


7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY

Cool beans, as long as they don't use legislation.

So I can abuse women all I like. Thanks bud!


8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY

See seven

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY

Responsibility can often be used by people to mean slavery. All responsibility must be voluntary.


Voluntary? People are lazy, irrational, and repeatedly make irrational decisions. Ever procrastinated? That's what happens when responsibility is voluntary.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY

Fairly vacuous but nice rhetoric
=)

Basically, I reckon the values are fairly solid (what I find most objectional about them is the values not highlighted), and I support them to a degree. What is missing from the picture is how much these values would be forced on upon others. For example, if you see someone only hiring white dudes and generally disrespecting diversity, what are you going to do about it? If you say that the government should step in and force him to hire some black guys, then they are no better than any thugs waving the magic wand of government who have had power for last few millennia.

Reply: I would personally disagree. Government is the mediator on which values are upheld. If a society agrees to certain values or laws, then they must be upheld by the people of the society. People who do not like it and want to act rebellious against the values or laws, this is a threat to the values of the society. All threats must be defended against accordingly. If the man wants to not hire black people, then fight for it in the political arena. If it is accepted by society, it is no longer a threat and everyone can live happy.

This reply doesnt address the main platform of the Green Party. It just talks about popular sovereignty. Sort of irrelevant.