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The Problems With Democracy

ianspigler
Posts: 24
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7/16/2011 12:06:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is are very major problems with democracy, something the average American doesn't recognize. One is that in a democracy, you have all these different people with different agenda's trying to get there party's view across, not usually recognizing that some resolutions are need to get passed. Because democracy allows so many different views, so much bickering goes on that nothing gets done. Also, in a true democracy (we are not a true democracy, we are a Representative Democracy with Mixed Socialist Elements) were "majority rules" you have a situation were if there is resentment between minorities and majorities you can have the majority take away the rights of the minority (i.e. America during the 1800's). Lastly, in a true democracy were the people rule is a bad thing because people in general aren't informed enough to make decisions on matters of international affairs and of state. Most people are not ruled by logic or wisdom, but by fear and appetite, this makes it easy for the leaders of democracy to manipulate the people
thisisnottom
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:32:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
you'd think they might just protect themselves against each other with their government though.. that it'd end up all fair.. that it might've been all worth the wait... but also that there very possibly could be horrendous enslaving..
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:36:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
but then maybe you wouldn't and these are just my imaginations...
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:37:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i certainly don't like how it is now anyway.. and think it probably among the best options.. though possibly not for freedom of expression.. you'd hope that wouldn't be the case though, and nearly think it.. or again maybe you wouldn't...
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:40:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 12:37:55 PM, el-badgero wrote:
i certainly don't like how it is now anyway.. and think it probably among the best options.. though possibly not for freedom of expression.. you'd hope that wouldn't be the case though, and nearly think it.. or again maybe you wouldn't...

well i don't see it'd have to end up any worse than anything else we've had for freedom of expression actually...
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/16/2011 12:46:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
the idea of giving hold of your life over to a minortiy certainly seems more threatening to me than to the majority... what with us all really being so similar..
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/16/2011 3:16:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 12:06:01 PM, ianspigler wrote:
There is are very major problems with democracy, something the average American doesn't recognize. One is that in a democracy, you have all these different people with different agenda's trying to get there party's view across, not usually recognizing that some resolutions are need to get passed. Because democracy allows so many different views, so much bickering goes on that nothing gets done. Also, in a true democracy (we are not a true democracy, we are a Representative Democracy with Mixed Socialist Elements) were "majority rules" you have a situation were if there is resentment between minorities and majorities you can have the majority take away the rights of the minority (i.e. America during the 1800's). Lastly, in a true democracy were the people rule is a bad thing because people in general aren't informed enough to make decisions on matters of international affairs and of state. Most people are not ruled by logic or wisdom, but by fear and appetite, this makes it easy for the leaders of democracy to manipulate the people

Question: You support the rule of minority over the majority then?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/16/2011 5:44:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Question: You support the rule of minority over the majority then?:

No, some things are deemed not to be left up to majority or minority rule. The United States, for instance, is not a democracy it's a Constitutional Republic. It deems certain things as inalienable rights, that no one can usurp. It is a form of democracy, but one that seeks to avoid the tyranny of the majority.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/16/2011 6:05:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 5:44:45 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Question: You support the rule of minority over the majority then?:

No, some things are deemed not to be left up to majority or minority rule. The United States, for instance, is not a democracy it's a Constitutional Republic. It deems certain things as inalienable rights, that no one can usurp. It is a form of democracy, but one that seeks to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

Question: How can a desire of the majority be labeled as tyrannical?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Pozzo
Posts: 139
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7/16/2011 7:15:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 6:05:43 PM, Tiel wrote:
Question: How can a desire of the majority be labeled as tyrannical?

Do you know what tyranny means? To use the clichéd old example, 51% vote to enslave the other 49%. That's a desire of the majority. I think most people would call it tyrannical.
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/16/2011 8:59:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 7:15:02 PM, Pozzo wrote:
At 7/16/2011 6:05:43 PM, Tiel wrote:
Question: How can a desire of the majority be labeled as tyrannical?

Do you know what tyranny means? To use the clichéd old example, 51% vote to enslave the other 49%. That's a desire of the majority. I think most people would call it tyrannical.

Reply: So if 51% vote to for something and 49% vote for the opposite, how would you justify the situation to make everyone happy? A republic would just have to choose a side, almost half the people are going to be unhappy either way.

Question: What is your solution?
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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7/16/2011 10:00:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
People can be enslaved without a government present. It's not like the rural south really needed the rule of law in the 1800's when blacks were enslaved in America. In fact, it took state power to end it.

Plus, people don't have to be geniuses in representative democracy because that's what staffers, economists, diplomats, etc, and the politicians themselves are for.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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7/16/2011 10:18:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why do you criticize democracy while in the same breathe acknowledging that we do not have it?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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7/16/2011 11:19:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
Edmund Burke, 1754
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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7/17/2011 1:34:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 10:00:50 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
People can be enslaved without a government present. It's not like the rural south really needed the rule of law in the 1800's when blacks were enslaved in America. In fact, it took state power to end it.

What? Slavery couldn't exist without the Government to enforce laws regarding slavery.
The rural south did need the rule of law on their side.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
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7/17/2011 1:46:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 11:19:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
Edmund Burke, 1754

Reply: There is truth in the words, but I do not feel that it is necessarily at the fault of democracy. Democracy is the only true way for people to have a voice that matters. Without that, people feel trapped and unsatisfied. I think that it's the social structure and economic design (specifically the monetary system) that causes the problems in a true democracy. Though I do feel that their must be some central form of order to keep the system running efficiently.

I am currently in the process of trying to design a system that would succeed where other system's have failed. It is a daunting task though, I don't feel that I will complete the design for many years to come. Hopefully I will have much help to help in this process.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/17/2011 1:51:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 5:44:45 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Question: You support the rule of minority over the majority then?:

No, some things are deemed not to be left up to majority or minority rule. The United States, for instance, is not a democracy it's a Constitutional Republic. It deems certain things as inalienable rights, that no one can usurp. It is a form of democracy, but one that seeks to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

That's still a rule of the minority over the majority. The "minority" being the views of the founding fathers.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/17/2011 1:54:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 7:16:07 PM, Pozzo wrote:
Democracy has a major problem in that most people are idiots.

It's not that they are idiots, but that they have lives. They have jobs to do, skills to learn, and family to take care of. In all of that, they don't have the time to get fully involved and truly understand political issues. This causes them to be left open to false in, emotional knee-jerk reactions, and flat out brainwashing (my favorite kind).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/17/2011 2:00:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 11:19:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
Edmund Burke, 1754

That should read as "A direct democracy." Sadly, since nothing is perfect, you will always have an imperfect system.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/17/2011 2:02:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
i thought it was rather well put as it was.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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7/17/2011 2:09:44 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/17/2011 2:02:14 AM, el-badgero wrote:
i thought it was rather well put as it was.

Not all forms of democracy will suffer from that. In fact, future ones may be able to bypass it.

It is based on the idea that men will help themselves in the short run, but kill themselves in the long run. We see this behavior all the time in individuals, from people not caring to understand debt, to doing certain drugs. That seems to back up the notion. However, we also see many people that don't suffer from this nearsightedness. People that are offered drugs, but say no. People that are offered credit cards, but turn them down.

While those that can't see past their own self interests often out number the others, they do not by rule. It is possible that the wise will out number the foolish someday. When that happens, democracy can work forever (so long as that balance is upheld).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/17/2011 2:20:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/17/2011 2:09:44 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/17/2011 2:02:14 AM, el-badgero wrote:
i thought it was rather well put as it was.

Not all forms of democracy will suffer from that. In fact, future ones may be able to bypass it.

It is based on the idea that men will help themselves in the short run, but kill themselves in the long run. We see this behavior all the time in individuals, from people not caring to understand debt, to doing certain drugs. That seems to back up the notion. However, we also see many people that don't suffer from this nearsightedness. People that are offered drugs, but say no. People that are offered credit cards, but turn them down.

While those that can't see past their own self interests often out number the others, they do not by rule. It is possible that the wise will out number the foolish someday. When that happens, democracy can work forever (so long as that balance is upheld).

it is possible.
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/17/2011 2:26:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
i still think it was fine as it is. but that dude wasn't living in the land of the internet!
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/17/2011 2:27:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
it is fine as it was? lol
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
el-badgero
Posts: 1,045
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7/17/2011 2:27:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
wis fine as it as? nice baby...
DATCMOTO's moustache makes him look like an eejit...

edit: nah, i'm jealous... God's an eejit definitely though!
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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7/17/2011 4:03:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 12:06:01 PM, ianspigler wrote:
There is are very major problems with democracy, something the average American doesn't recognize.

One is that in a democracy, you have all these different people with different agenda's trying to get there party's view across, not usually recognizing that some resolutions are need to get passed.

What you're forgetting is that in a democracy, there is people pressure too. When the resolutions are urgent, the situations that force the urgency makes it almost necessary for the ruling party to address the issue. The opposition party too plays an instrumental role in maintaining the pressure required to pass the resolution. The gay rights resolution, recent gay marriage legalization are all the laws that Are passed. And when a law is being passed, isn't it better that all the sections of society have their say in a law that's probably going to affect them all? Instead of a autocratic rule that's passed early but is controversial.

Because democracy allows so many different views, so much bickering goes on that nothing gets done. Also, in a true democracy (we are not a true democracy, we are a Representative Democracy with Mixed Socialist Elements) were "majority rules" you have a situation were if there is resentment between minorities and majorities you can have the majority take away the rights of the minority (i.e. America during the 1800's).

The majority Can. But unfortunately they do have to abide by previous laws which have to guarantee equality before the law. And also, you are under the delusion that majority will always try to override the minority. This is quite wrong in most of the situations when apathy also weighs in. Most of the majority might not like many of the laws favoring the minority, they might oppose them , but the laws still get passed.

/legal obligations

Lastly, in a true democracy were the people rule is a bad thing because people in general aren't informed enough to make decisions on matters of international affairs and of state. Most people are not ruled by logic or wisdom, but by fear and appetite, this makes it easy for the leaders of democracy to manipulate the people

To manipulate the people into seeing the logic of their argument while the opposition tries to venture them into their own logic. Both will show how their decision would be more beneficial. This might bend the people, but in my experience, people's opinion rarely affect the international decisions by a country.
seraine
Posts: 734
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7/17/2011 9:58:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 11:19:05 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship."
Edmund Burke, 1754

Is this the self interested voter hypothesis? Wasn't that demonstrated mostly wrong in The Myth of the Rational Voter?
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/17/2011 10:39:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/16/2011 6:05:43 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 7/16/2011 5:44:45 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Question: You support the rule of minority over the majority then?:

No, some things are deemed not to be left up to majority or minority rule. The United States, for instance, is not a democracy it's a Constitutional Republic. It deems certain things as inalienable rights, that no one can usurp. It is a form of democracy, but one that seeks to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

Question: How can a desire of the majority be labeled as tyrannical?:

In your estimation, were the actions of the Nazi's or Soviets necessarily good simply because the majority of the people agreed with them?

Should we not give people a fair trial, or should we just string them up on tree at the behest of an angry, emotive crowd bent on retribution?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/17/2011 10:43:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Reply: So if 51% vote to for something and 49% vote for the opposite, how would you justify the situation to make everyone happy? A republic would just have to choose a side, almost half the people are going to be unhappy either way.

Question: What is your solution?:

Some things can be left to a vote, but a Direct Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

And liberty? Well, liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)