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Political leanings of wise fictional people

Indophile
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8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.

What would you label him as? (Of course he was supporting a king, on which basis he can be said to be a monarchist, but what do his actions portray him as?)

Any other "wise guys" as well? :)
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jat93
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8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.
jat93
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8/9/2011 6:38:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives.

Not that J.K. Rowling necessarily meant to write them with that political edge but the characteristics doubtlessly line up.
Ore_Ele
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8/9/2011 6:46:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.
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jat93
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8/9/2011 6:49:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:46:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.

Oh come on, Harry was a REALLY isolated circumstance. I think any decision that involves the fate of the world (or at least in this case, the wizarding world) can be safely counted out when evaluating any character's political views.
freedomsquared
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8/9/2011 6:49:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:46:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.

Yea, he's definitely got a whole people above the individual complex. He's an anarcho-communist (hates government, liberal leanings, supports poor masses [as seen with his love of muggles])
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
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jat93
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8/9/2011 6:54:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:49:35 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:46:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.

Oh come on, Harry was a REALLY isolated circumstance. I think any decision that involves the fate of the world (or at least in this case, the wizarding world) can be safely counted out when evaluating any character's political views.

Plus he technically never forced Harry to do anything against his will. He said that he would have to die in order to save the world and defeat Voldemort, and that when the time came, Harry would make that choice himself. So I don't think he manipulated him and even if he did, it's an extremely isolated case and clearly an exception. Whether or not he was dedicated enough to any given philosophy to let it influence decisions that involve saving the world or letting it be destroyed is a different story - he doesn't have to be a "devout" libertarian.

Anyway though, I'm still not even sure if he is a libertarian in the first place because I haven't read the books in ages.
Ore_Ele
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8/9/2011 6:54:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 6:49:37 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:46:53 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2011 6:37:15 PM, jat93 wrote:
In Harry Potter, the good guys (including Dumbledore) are all meant to be socially liberal while the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives. I was going to say that Dumbledore would be fully liberal but I'm not sure what his fiscal views would be - he's not really so into government and always rejected numerous pleas to becoming Minister of Magic. Also, it's worth noting that in Harry Potter, the government is almost always portrayed as incompetent and almost always corrupt and self-serving. Dumbledore recognizes this. And he really hates, just like every "wise" person in the book does, when the government tries to intervene with the school by enforcing its own regulations on what Dumbledore believes should be the school's decisions. For example, dementors in the castle and Umbridge in a position of power at Hogwarts during the 5th book.

In light of all that, maybe Dumbledore is a libertarian. He's certainly extremely socially liberal and doesn't like many kinds of government intervention. I feel like many wise fictional characters would be libertarian come to think of it.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.

Yea, he's definitely got a whole people above the individual complex. He's an anarcho-communist (hates government, liberal leanings, supports poor masses [as seen with his love of muggles])

That does sound about right. When he was young, he planned (well, fantasied about) world domination, but after the person that he was planning that with (Gringwald) turned bad and he (maybe) accidently killed his sister (one of them did it), he backed off of tot-com and seemed to drift to an-com, or at least mini-com.
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BennyW
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8/9/2011 7:22:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Gandalf is an interesting one.
He does pretty much force Bilbo into his journey in the Hobbit though attributes it to fate. He does not however believe in vigilante justice or so he claims. A monarchist definitely but other than that his political views are hard to pinpoint.

Now this is probably not what you meant but people like Hank Hill and Al Bundy often will have words of wisdom (if perhaps in the case of Bundy sexist and xenomphoic). Though I would call both those characters typical Conservatives although Al Bundy does have socially liberal aspects. The same goes for Archie Bunker, a lot like Al Bundy.

Yoda, he is definitely anti-imperialistic. Possibly libertarian.
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It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
BennyW
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8/9/2011 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:22:13 PM, BennyW wrote:
Gandalf is an interesting one.
He does pretty much force Bilbo into his journey in the Hobbit though attributes it to fate. He does not however believe in vigilante justice or so he claims. A monarchist definitely but other than that his political views are hard to pinpoint.

Now this is probably not what you meant but people like Hank Hill and Al Bundy often will have words of wisdom (if perhaps in the case of Bundy sexist and xenomphoic). Though I would call both those characters typical Conservatives although Al Bundy does have socially liberal aspects. The same goes for Archie Bunker, a lot like Al Bundy.

Yoda, he is definitely anti-imperialistic. Possibly libertarian.

Also Spock, I think the most telling thing in his view is "the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one". This implies he is not an individualist. He is probably Democratic (I don't mean in the sense of the American Democratic party though).
You didn't build that-Obama
It's pretty lazy to quote things you disagree with, call it stupid and move on, rather than arguing with the person. -000ike
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/10/2011 5:08:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 7:22:13 PM, BennyW wrote:
Gandalf is an interesting one.
He does pretty much force Bilbo into his journey in the Hobbit though attributes it to fate. He does not however believe in vigilante justice or so he claims. A monarchist definitely but other than that his political views are hard to pinpoint.

Now this is probably not what you meant but people like Hank Hill and Al Bundy often will have words of wisdom (if perhaps in the case of Bundy sexist and xenomphoic). Though I would call both those characters typical Conservatives although Al Bundy does have socially liberal aspects. The same goes for Archie Bunker, a lot like Al Bundy.

Yoda, he is definitely anti-imperialistic. Possibly libertarian.

He fully accepts the use of clone troopers to suppress a seccessionist movement against a corrupt state. Not very libertarian.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/10/2011 8:46:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 8:36:19 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
This thread has hit epic nerd status.

Yay!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

hile the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives.
Fudge could be a neocon, the death eaters are Nazis, there is a difference.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.
Manipulation isn't initiation of force, though I spose his stance on not letting Harry spend all summer with the willing Burrow-owners is. (and plan on killing? "You'll have to die" and "I'm gonna kill" are different things. One is a matter of persuasion.)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 1:50:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ultimately though, Dumbledore is the inevitable sort of fictionalized leftist whose actions don't have their logical oppressive prerequisites onscreen. Very few leftists have the balls to write their protagonists actually arranging for the collection of taxes, and very few ever will.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
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8/10/2011 2:00:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 1:50:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ultimately though, Dumbledore is the inevitable sort of fictionalized leftist whose actions don't have their logical oppressive prerequisites onscreen. Very few leftists have the balls to write their protagonists actually arranging for the collection of taxes, and very few ever will.

Kind of like how the very few righties have the overies to write their protagonists actually closing down state run homeless shelters while kicking people out and writing a refund check for the lower taxes to some guy in a limo (while the hobos probably wash his windshield and he tells them to get a job).
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Tim_Spin
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8/10/2011 2:06:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:00:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:50:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ultimately though, Dumbledore is the inevitable sort of fictionalized leftist whose actions don't have their logical oppressive prerequisites onscreen. Very few leftists have the balls to write their protagonists actually arranging for the collection of taxes, and very few ever will.

Kind of like how the very few righties have the overies to write their protagonists actually closing down state run homeless shelters while kicking people out and ending taxes on the middle and lower class and writing a refund check for the lower taxes to some guy in a limo and ending corporate welfare and bail outs of corporate fat cats.

Fix'd.
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Indophile
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8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

hile the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives.
Fudge could be a neocon, the death eaters are Nazis, there is a difference.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.
Manipulation isn't initiation of force, though I spose his stance on not letting Harry spend all summer with the willing Burrow-owners is. (and plan on killing? "You'll have to die" and "I'm gonna kill" are different things. One is a matter of persuasion.)
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
freedomsquared
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8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

hile the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives.
Fudge could be a neocon, the death eaters are Nazis, there is a difference.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.
Manipulation isn't initiation of force, though I spose his stance on not letting Harry spend all summer with the willing Burrow-owners is. (and plan on killing? "You'll have to die" and "I'm gonna kill" are different things. One is a matter of persuasion.)

What do ya'll think about Brom from the Eragon series?
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
-innomen

http://www.debate.org...
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Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 2:09:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:00:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:50:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ultimately though, Dumbledore is the inevitable sort of fictionalized leftist whose actions don't have their logical oppressive prerequisites onscreen. Very few leftists have the balls to write their protagonists actually arranging for the collection of taxes, and very few ever will.

Kind of like how the very few righties have the overies to write their protagonists actually closing down state run homeless shelters
How about killing hordes of pacifists who are acting as human shields, killing enemy civilians? All this and more in Terry Goodkind-- which is probably why there are so many rants on the interwebs against him. How about shooting sailors who are shipping foreign aid? Danneskjold in Atlas Shrugged. Oh, and in the Fountainhead, the protagonist BOMBS-- state-run low income housing-- more or less a homeless shelter.

while kicking people out and writing a refund check for the lower taxes
Umm... if the kind of rightist who is actually against state run homeless shelters (i.e. a libertarian, as opposed to "compassionate conservatives" or neocon, or the social conservatives who just want bibles at such shelters) is running things, there are no refund checks-- after all, no taxes. And you don't write refund checks at a homeless shelter anyway.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 2:11:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
stuff about eagle
Well covered by someone else, and yes, I read it.

What do ya'll think about Brom from the Eragon series?
Though I read the first two I don't remember them too well.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Indophile
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8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?

hile the bad guys (Voldemort and Death Eaters) are meant to be neoconservatives.
Fudge could be a neocon, the death eaters are Nazis, there is a difference.

Given Dumbledore's actions regarding manipulation (planning on killing Harry, etc), I don't know if he'd really pass as Libertarian.
Manipulation isn't initiation of force, though I spose his stance on not letting Harry spend all summer with the willing Burrow-owners is. (and plan on killing? "You'll have to die" and "I'm gonna kill" are different things. One is a matter of persuasion.)

What do ya'll think about Brom from the Eragon series?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Indophile
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8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.

What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.

Your argument sounds like this. I want to get to Mordor from the Shire. I know where I can find a biplane. But the biplane belongs to somebody, who is not willing to take me there. Hence, I'm a fool for not taking the biplane.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ragnar_Rahl
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8/10/2011 2:27:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.
He doesn't have to control them, why would they refuse? They're one Gandalf's side and indebted to him.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
freedomsquared
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8/10/2011 2:28:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.

What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.

Your argument sounds like this. I want to get to Mordor from the Shire. I know where I can find a biplane. But the biplane belongs to somebody, who is not willing to take me there. Hence, I'm a fool for not taking the biplane.

Explain why the eagles could be used at the end but not at the beginning. Even if it's only a one way trip, I'd take the one way trip in and die for a guaranteed win rather than the risk of the epic quest they went on.
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
-innomen

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Indophile
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8/10/2011 2:35:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:27:58 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.
He doesn't have to control them, why would they refuse? They're one Gandalf's side and indebted to him.

And they've repaid the debt and went beyond it. They saved his hide in The Hobbit, they saved him from Saruman, they saved him after he killed the Balrog.

Also, when do you actually see Gandalf actively requesting the eagles' help? They just show up whenever they want.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Indophile
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8/10/2011 2:36:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:28:08 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.

What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.

Your argument sounds like this. I want to get to Mordor from the Shire. I know where I can find a biplane. But the biplane belongs to somebody, who is not willing to take me there. Hence, I'm a fool for not taking the biplane.

Explain why the eagles could be used at the end but not at the beginning. Even if it's only a one way trip, I'd take the one way trip in and die for a guaranteed win rather than the risk of the epic quest they went on.

The eagles could be used at the end because the eagles consented to be used at the end. They did not consent to be used at the beginning. It's not your choice when they assist you. If they do, you shut up and take it. If they don't, you shut up and take it as well.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
freedomsquared
Posts: 450
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8/10/2011 2:37:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:36:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:28:08 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.

What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.

Your argument sounds like this. I want to get to Mordor from the Shire. I know where I can find a biplane. But the biplane belongs to somebody, who is not willing to take me there. Hence, I'm a fool for not taking the biplane.

Explain why the eagles could be used at the end but not at the beginning. Even if it's only a one way trip, I'd take the one way trip in and die for a guaranteed win rather than the risk of the epic quest they went on.

The eagles could be used at the end because the eagles consented to be used at the end. They did not consent to be used at the beginning. It's not your choice when they assist you. If they do, you shut up and take it. If they don't, you shut up and take it as well.

So the eagles are intelligent creatures that have consent to give? If that's the case, why wouldn't they give their consent in the beginning?
But it's Norway, sort of the Canada of Europe."
-innomen

http://www.debate.org...
-humorous debate with brian_eggleston

http://www.debate.org...
-tournament debate, need votes
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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8/10/2011 2:40:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/10/2011 2:37:55 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:36:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:28:08 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:25:11 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:16:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:13:42 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:08:45 PM, freedomsquared wrote:
At 8/10/2011 2:07:27 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/10/2011 1:47:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 8/9/2011 1:48:10 PM, Indophile wrote:
I was wondering what would be the political terms/labels of wise characters in literature (or at least characters who were professed to be wise).

For example, Gandalf. I hope everybody agrees that he is a good example of a wise character.
Mother****er has an eagle.

Mother****er only uses it for one way of the trip.

wtf?

Did you even read Tolkien? The eagles are not there for the having. They are not some glorified pets. Gandalf certainly doesn't control them.

If you can ride them away at the end, you could've rode them there in the beginning.

Yes, but you can hardly blame Gandalf for the eagles showing up at the end. Blame the eagles for not showing up at the beginning. Why put the blame of Gandalf?
Gandalf knew where they nested. No need to wait for them to show up, walking there from the Shire would be quicker than SIMPLY WALKING INTO MORDOR.

What part of "Gandalf doesn't control the eagles" is ambiguous, I want to know.

Your argument sounds like this. I want to get to Mordor from the Shire. I know where I can find a biplane. But the biplane belongs to somebody, who is not willing to take me there. Hence, I'm a fool for not taking the biplane.

Explain why the eagles could be used at the end but not at the beginning. Even if it's only a one way trip, I'd take the one way trip in and die for a guaranteed win rather than the risk of the epic quest they went on.

The eagles could be used at the end because the eagles consented to be used at the end. They did not consent to be used at the beginning. It's not your choice when they assist you. If they do, you shut up and take it. If they don't, you shut up and take it as well.

So the eagles are intelligent creatures that have consent to give? If that's the case, why wouldn't they give their consent in the beginning?

Yes, the eagles are highly intelligent creatures. They don't care what the other races on Middle Earth do. They just show up whenever they want, wherever they want.

Also, why SHOULD they give their consent to anything? It's their choice.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.