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9/11 Terrorist or Government

000ike
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8/25/2011 4:02:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, the 10th anniversary of 9/11 is coming up, and the recent conspiracy forums have got me in the mood for debunking. So, to start, I'd like the conspiracy theorists here to help me understand something. Can you explain, in detail, what our government would gain in bombing two of its most important buildings, killing thousands of its people, practically incinerating its own money, plunging itself into economic dismay, attacking and destroying part of its own military base, and then further spend money in the repair of that supposedly intentional destruction? .....just for starters...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
GeoLaureate8
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8/25/2011 4:19:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The specifics aren't certain, but the official story has been debunked, the 9/11 Commission admitted the government lied, we provoked the attack, and it was a manipulated event.

What the government gain by this?

Problem-Reaction-Solution. A mind manipulation technique used by governments to centralize power and gain more control.

First, you create the problem (terrorists attack trade center, create boogey man for everyone to fear)
Then the people react and want to know "what are they going to do about it."
The government then provides the solution and administers legislation it already wanted to instate from the beginning (Patriot Act, TSA, justifying aggressive wars).

You see, the government would never have been able to consolidate power and create enslavement policy like Patriot Act without the threat of terrorism. So the government had to create fear and crisis to get what they want.

"All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
-- David Rockefeller
(Global Elitist, Bilderberger, Illuminati)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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8/25/2011 4:27:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
And you ask why we would attack part of our own military base?

Why don't you ask the Nazis why they set fire to their own Reichstag Building which led to legislation restricting civil liberties for the protection of the state, thus allowing Hitler to consolidate power.

It's called False Flag terrorism. Look up Operation Northwoods.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/25/2011 4:29:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
In all fairness, Bush exploited terrorist scare to help him get elected. Not that I'm remotely a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, but the event was exploited to the full to justify a radical expansion of government domestic and international intervention.
Ore_Ele
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8/25/2011 4:33:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:29:45 PM, Kinesis wrote:
In all fairness, Bush exploited terrorist scare to help him get elected. Not that I'm remotely a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, but the event was exploited to the full to justify a radical expansion of government domestic and international intervention.

Taking advantage of a situation beyond your control is very different from causing the situation for the purpose of taking advantage of it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/25/2011 4:35:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:19:39 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The specifics aren't certain, but the official story has been debunked, the 9/11 Commission admitted the government lied, we provoked the attack, and it was a manipulated event.:

Show us where in the official report that they admitted to lying and that it was a manipulated event.

First, you create the problem (terrorists attack trade center, create boogey man for everyone to fear). Then the people react and want to know "what are they going to do about it." The government then provides the solution and administers legislation it already wanted to instate from the beginning (Patriot Act, TSA, justifying aggressive wars).:

The question was what they stand to benefit from it.

"All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
-- David Rockefeller
(Global Elitist, Bilderberger, Illuminati):

I'm curious to hear your interpretation on what the NWO is.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government consists of many individuals in many overlapping organisations with many agendas.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
000ike
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8/25/2011 4:35:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:33:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:29:45 PM, Kinesis wrote:
In all fairness, Bush exploited terrorist scare to help him get elected. Not that I'm remotely a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, but the event was exploited to the full to justify a radical expansion of government domestic and international intervention.

Taking advantage of a situation beyond your control is very different from causing the situation for the purpose of taking advantage of it.

That was going to be my reply to whatever Geolauriate said. You beat me to it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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8/25/2011 4:36:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government consists of many individuals in many overlapping organisations with many agendas.

What in the world are you talking about? That assembly of individuals is collectively referred to as THE government...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Kinesis
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8/25/2011 4:38:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:33:03 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Taking advantage of a situation beyond your control is very different from causing the situation for the purpose of taking advantage of it.

Quite true. I'm not remotely implying Bush orchestrated anything.
GeoLaureate8
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8/25/2011 4:43:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government

What? You said there is no "the government" and then followed that sentence referring to "the government."

consists of many individuals in many overlapping organisations with many agendas.

Yes, that is what is meant by "the government."

Just because a word's definition encompasses multiple entities doesn't mean the word can't be used. "There is no
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/25/2011 4:43:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:29:45 PM, Kinesis wrote:
In all fairness, Bush exploited terrorist scare to help him get elected. Not that I'm remotely a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, but the event was exploited to the full to justify a radical expansion of government domestic and international intervention.:

That was the result, yes, but the real question is whether or not that was a premeditated plan on part of the government. That's essentially what the OP wants to know.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/25/2011 4:45:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:43:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government

What? You said there is no "the government" and then followed that sentence referring to "the government.":

Please note the context with the all-caps version of THE government versus the government, as in, any government.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
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8/25/2011 4:48:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All mainstream conspiracy theorist contentions debunked.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/25/2011 4:50:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:43:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government

What? You said there is no "the government" and then followed that sentence referring to "the government."

consists of many individuals in many overlapping organisations with many agendas.

Yes, that is what is meant by "the government."

Just because a word's definition encompasses multiple entities doesn't mean the word can't be used. "There is no

Did you not see the capitalisation?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/25/2011 4:54:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:45:28 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:43:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:35:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Firstly there is no THE Government. The Government

What? You said there is no "the government" and then followed that sentence referring to "the government.":

Please note the context with the all-caps version of THE government versus the government, as in, any government.

It seemed that he was implying that it's wrong to refer to the government as a singular entity.

Nobody claimed that there is a "THE government," of course there's multiple governments. Were clearly referring to our government when were talking about "the government." Of course on a higher level, many of the governments are connected by an even more powerful power structure.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/25/2011 4:55:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:48:55 PM, 000ike wrote:


All mainstream conspiracy theorist contentions debunked.

That video is pathetic.... is it a spoof?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/25/2011 4:57:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nobody claimed that there is a "THE government," of course there's multiple governments.:

But isn't your entire schtick dependent upon the notion of Illuminati who want to create a New World Order (essentially a supergovernment)?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/25/2011 4:57:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:55:34 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:48:55 PM, 000ike wrote:


All mainstream conspiracy theorist contentions debunked.

That video is pathetic.... is it a spoof?

Hmm if only calling proof pathetic was enough to damage its factual integrity. Sadly its not. The video may be pathetic by your standards, but its the truth none the less.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/25/2011 5:00:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:57:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:55:34 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/25/2011 4:48:55 PM, 000ike wrote:


All mainstream conspiracy theorist contentions debunked.

That video is pathetic.... is it a spoof?


Hmm if only calling proof pathetic was enough to damage its factual integrity. Sadly its not. The video may be pathetic by your standards, but its the truth none the less.

Civilian demolitions are from the bottom to the top, it is physically impossible to do it top to bottom?

Steel could not have physically been melted in the fire... oh no but wait the fire proofing was not knocked so the properties of steel were magically changed... right.

Okay there is a lot crap that gets spouted by us 9-11 conspiracy nuts but seriously? Why don't you just blame it all on wizards?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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8/25/2011 5:05:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 5:00:49 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Civilian demolitions are from the bottom to the top, it is physically impossible to do it top to bottom?

No. In controlled demolition videos, you can see the bombs going off at the bottom and as the foundation gives, the building topples over in a nearly vertical fall.

The WTC collapse occurred from the top and sunk in.

Steel could not have physically been melted in the fire... oh no but wait the fire proofing was not knocked so the properties of steel were magically changed... right.

The steel did not have to melt for the structural integrity of the building to be compromised.

Okay there is a lot crap that gets spouted by us 9-11 conspiracy nuts but seriously? Why don't you just blame it all on wizards?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/25/2011 5:14:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 5:05:37 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/25/2011 5:00:49 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Civilian demolitions are from the bottom to the top, it is physically impossible to do it top to bottom?

No. In controlled demolition videos, you can see the bombs going off at the bottom and as the foundation gives, the building topples over in a nearly vertical fall.

In a controlled civilian demolition?


Steel could not have physically been melted in the fire... oh no but wait the fire proofing was not knocked so the properties of steel were magically changed... right.

The steel did not have to melt for the structural integrity of the building to be compromised.

But it did melt. Thats the problem that the video fails to address.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Wnope
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8/25/2011 6:08:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No one with an even basic understanding of international relations can say with a straight face that George Bush planned out the 9/11 attacks using Al Qaida as some sort of puppet or scape goat.

I have always found it incredible what ignorance is necessary to perpetuate this conspiracy.

Go back over the history of terrorism in the america, middle-east, northern africa, indonesia, and europe and you can see just how horrifically simplistic the "truthers" are.

Now, might George Bush have known in advance the attack was coming? Perhaps, I'm open to that.

But that is galaxies away from the claim most truthers make.
Wnope
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8/25/2011 6:10:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 4:27:54 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And you ask why we would attack part of our own military base?

Why don't you ask the Nazis why they set fire to their own Reichstag Building which led to legislation restricting civil liberties for the protection of the state, thus allowing Hitler to consolidate power.

It's called False Flag terrorism. Look up Operation Northwoods.

Please, step out of your euro-centric bubble and take a bigger look.

There are actors in different countries playing this out. The world isn't some drama with America as the grand player.

How about the al qaida attacks on european nations that wanted to join the coalition of the willing?
000ike
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8/25/2011 6:14:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 6:08:52 PM, Wnope wrote:
No one with an even basic understanding of international relations can say with a straight face that George Bush planned out the 9/11 attacks using Al Qaida as some sort of puppet or scape goat.

I have always found it incredible what ignorance is necessary to perpetuate this conspiracy.

Go back over the history of terrorism in the america, middle-east, northern africa, indonesia, and europe and you can see just how horrifically simplistic the "truthers" are.

Now, might George Bush have known in advance the attack was coming? Perhaps, I'm open to that.

But that is galaxies away from the claim most truthers make.

THIS. That has got to be the most eloquent retort to conspiracy theorists that I have ever read.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Wnope
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8/25/2011 6:15:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Which of the following terrorist organizations are under our government's control?

Abu Sayyaf Group, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, al-qaeda in iraq, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad Union, PLF, PLO, PIJ....

Seriously, America, get over yourself.
GeoLaureate8
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8/25/2011 6:20:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 6:14:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/25/2011 6:08:52 PM, Wnope wrote:
No one with an even basic understanding of international relations can say with a straight face that George Bush planned out the 9/11 attacks using Al Qaida as some sort of puppet or scape goat.

I have always found it incredible what ignorance is necessary to perpetuate this conspiracy.

Go back over the history of terrorism in the america, middle-east, northern africa, indonesia, and europe and you can see just how horrifically simplistic the "truthers" are.

Now, might George Bush have known in advance the attack was coming? Perhaps, I'm open to that.

But that is galaxies away from the claim most truthers make.

THIS. That has got to be the most eloquent retort to conspiracy theorists that I have ever read.

You must have low standards than. That rebuttal wasn't all that great.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Wnope
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8/25/2011 6:21:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/25/2011 6:20:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/25/2011 6:14:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 8/25/2011 6:08:52 PM, Wnope wrote:
No one with an even basic understanding of international relations can say with a straight face that George Bush planned out the 9/11 attacks using Al Qaida as some sort of puppet or scape goat.

I have always found it incredible what ignorance is necessary to perpetuate this conspiracy.

Go back over the history of terrorism in the america, middle-east, northern africa, indonesia, and europe and you can see just how horrifically simplistic the "truthers" are.

Now, might George Bush have known in advance the attack was coming? Perhaps, I'm open to that.

But that is galaxies away from the claim most truthers make.

THIS. That has got to be the most eloquent retort to conspiracy theorists that I have ever read.

You must have low standards than. That rebuttal wasn't all that great.

It's a retort, not a rebuttal.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/25/2011 6:32:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Civilian demolitions are from the bottom to the top, it is physically impossible to do it top to bottom?:

It kind of ruins the credibility of the claim when the "demolition" just so happened to explode on the exact points of the aircrafts entry in to both buildings... as if flying planes in to three extremely important buildings isn't enough of a conspiracy all by itself! Now we have to add explosives in to the mix which must have required close to a hundred people wiring the buildings for weeks, all without a single soul noticing. LOL!

Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Steel could not have physically been melted in the fire... oh no but wait the fire proofing was not knocked so the properties of steel were magically changed... right.:

It didn't "melt," it warped. How do you think steel gets it's shape in the first place? By fire....

Okay there is a lot crap that gets spouted by us 9-11 conspiracy nuts but seriously? Why don't you just blame it all on wizards?:

The 9/11 conspiracies defy all credibility and none of them have stood up to scrutiny or rationality. The devil is in the details, and if you truly analyze the details, the whole story crumbles like the Towers did.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Wnope
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8/25/2011 6:34:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm going to show you just how screwed up Truthers are in their history.

Here is how truthers explain things:

America armed bin laden during the russian revolution and trained saddam so that they would act under their command. When the time was right, america had bin laden attack america and/or bin laden was used as a scapegoat.

REALITY:

Jihadist-based terrorism arose out of the fall of the Turkey and the last Caliph early in world war 1.

Sunni-based terrorism wanted to reinstall the Caliphate and overthrow all other non-islamic governments. Shiitte terrorists for most part fended off sunni terrorists.

Osama and his group grow up in a generation influenced by writers like Al Qtb that talk about a global jihad and turning the world into on caliphate.

After defending the homeland against russians, all the extremists were gathered in the same place, which is where Osama made up most of his Al Qaeda.

He reconnected with the major terrorist groups of the time, largely the Egyptian Islamic Jihad (IIRC).

KEY POINT: Before the first Gulf War, Osama and other jihadist terrorists primarily targeted domestic governments (and Israel). They wanted to overthrow their local governments and THEN overthrow western governments.

However, the west placed troops in the holy land during the Gulf War. Osama offered to fight Saddam, but the Saudi Kings instead kicked him out.

Since then, Osama and all al-qaeda affiliated groups have refocused on the "global jihad" especially targeting the "west."

Al-qaeda wanted us to overreact because large attacks on America lead to massive influxes of Al Qaeda troops.

Now, did Cheney want to invade Iraq at the first chance he got?

Hell yes, Cheney had one of several plans in store for "taking Saddam out again."

When 9/11 hit, the President and his staff used 9/11 as their excuse to take out Iraq.

It's not a conspiracy. It's just politics.