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Immigration and the Welfare State

jimtimmy
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9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/11/2011 9:06:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
That's why I don't support a welfare state, but do support near free immigration.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:14:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.

I don't think this is true... Immigrants generally do worse than non-Immigrants...
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/11/2011 9:16:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:14:08 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.


I don't think this is true... Immigrants generally do worse than non-Immigrants...

Source?
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:20:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:16:02 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:14:08 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.


I don't think this is true... Immigrants generally do worse than non-Immigrants...

Source?

Me or him?

He made a sourceless claim, and I made a sourceless response.
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jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:21:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.

I wouldn't, but at least your position makes sense...
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/11/2011 9:22:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:20:30 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:16:02 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:14:08 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.


I don't think this is true... Immigrants generally do worse than non-Immigrants...

Source?

Me or him?

He made a sourceless claim, and I made a sourceless response.

http://www.wimp.com... Here you go, now fulfill your end of the deal
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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9/11/2011 9:29:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.

I wouldn't, but at least your position makes sense...

Why? If social programs were abolished, then that would ensure that every immigrant who came here and stayed contributed positively one or another. So long as they do that, I have no problem with them, but currently we have welfare, foodstamps, mismanaged public education and laws requiring that hospitals cannot turn away anybody on the basis of ability to pay.

As a result we waste billions in welfare and foodstamps, millions on teaching english as a second language and have hundreds of hospitals being run out of business at the border states. All for nothing in return.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:31:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:22:01 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:20:30 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:16:02 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:14:08 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:03:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Immigrants are responsible for some of the most impressive test scores in America. Without immigrants the Scientific faction of America would collapse.


I don't think this is true... Immigrants generally do worse than non-Immigrants...

Source?

Me or him?

He made a sourceless claim, and I made a sourceless response.

http://www.wimp.com... Here you go, now fulfill your end of the deal

You did not prove your point... You just gave a video of a guy talking about stuff, not statistics...

http://www.heritage.org...

There are actually charts here.

A highlight:

"First-generation immigrants and their families, who are one-sixth of the U.S. population, comprise one-fourth of all poor persons in the U.S."
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jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:35:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:29:28 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.

I wouldn't, but at least your position makes sense...

Why? If social programs were abolished, then that would ensure that every immigrant who came here and stayed contributed positively one or another. So long as they do that, I have no problem with them, but currently we have welfare, foodstamps, mismanaged public education and laws requiring that hospitals cannot turn away anybody on the basis of ability to pay.

As a result we waste billions in welfare and foodstamps, millions on teaching english as a second language and have hundreds of hospitals being run out of business at the border states. All for nothing in return.

Because, immigrants from poor countries would still come flooding in... It would be less of a problem than it would be with a welfare state... but still a problem nonetheless...

People have every right to restrict immigration. If all property were private, all immigration would be restricted...
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quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
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9/11/2011 9:36:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:35:00 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:29:28 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.

I wouldn't, but at least your position makes sense...

Why? If social programs were abolished, then that would ensure that every immigrant who came here and stayed contributed positively one or another. So long as they do that, I have no problem with them, but currently we have welfare, foodstamps, mismanaged public education and laws requiring that hospitals cannot turn away anybody on the basis of ability to pay.

As a result we waste billions in welfare and foodstamps, millions on teaching english as a second language and have hundreds of hospitals being run out of business at the border states. All for nothing in return.

Because, immigrants from poor countries would still come flooding in... It would be less of a problem than it would be with a welfare state... but still a problem nonetheless...

People have every right to restrict immigration. If all property were private, all immigration would be restricted...

Poor people weren't a problem in the early 1900s.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:41:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:36:11 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:35:00 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:29:28 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:20:22 PM, quarterexchange wrote:
I'd be for open borders and allowing every immigrant citizenship after establishing they aren't criminals and aren't carrying some sort of disease, if every government run social program was abolished.

I wouldn't, but at least your position makes sense...

Why? If social programs were abolished, then that would ensure that every immigrant who came here and stayed contributed positively one or another. So long as they do that, I have no problem with them, but currently we have welfare, foodstamps, mismanaged public education and laws requiring that hospitals cannot turn away anybody on the basis of ability to pay.

As a result we waste billions in welfare and foodstamps, millions on teaching english as a second language and have hundreds of hospitals being run out of business at the border states. All for nothing in return.

Because, immigrants from poor countries would still come flooding in... It would be less of a problem than it would be with a welfare state... but still a problem nonetheless...

People have every right to restrict immigration. If all property were private, all immigration would be restricted...

Poor people weren't a problem in the early 1900s.

Yes they were... Heard of the Populist movement?

This is another point... If we had unrestricted immigration, immigrants would vote the welfare state right back in...
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
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9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/11/2011 10:49:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...

I'm not personally familiar with any advocates of an "open border" approach. What is wrong with allowing legal immigrant to contribute taxes and workforce? You assume the immigrant will necessarily be a drain on society.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/11/2011 10:57:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 10:49:26 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...

I'm not personally familiar with any advocates of an "open border" approach. What is wrong with allowing legal immigrant to contribute taxes and workforce? You assume the immigrant will necessarily be a drain on society.

What is wrong with an open border approach? We have an open border with Canada. Canadian immigrants can come in at any time. So too should Mexican immigrants if they want to.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/11/2011 11:00:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The incompatibility of open immigration from Mexico with the welfare state speaks in favor of open immigration. Speeds along the decision to get rid of the welfare state.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/11/2011 11:07:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 10:57:45 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 10:49:26 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...

I'm not personally familiar with any advocates of an "open border" approach. What is wrong with allowing legal immigrant to contribute taxes and workforce? You assume the immigrant will necessarily be a drain on society.

What is wrong with an open border approach? We have an open border with Canada. Canadian immigrants can come in at any time. So too should Mexican immigrants if they want to.

Canadians may come in at any time, but they can't stay as long they want. There is a process of citizenship or work visas or marriage for anyone who wants to stay long term. Vacationing and visiting family is fine, but moving long term should entail some form of registration. I imagine open borders as a sort of free for all without any form of government regulation on the movement of labor and/or consumers (those who work are also consumers). If I am wrong, feel free to tell me.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
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9/11/2011 11:08:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 11:00:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The incompatibility of open immigration from Mexico with the welfare state speaks in favor of open immigration. Speeds along the decision to get rid of the welfare state.

I think it will work if welfare is restricted to US citizens who actually have a US passport. That way we can have both immigration and a welfare state. Win-win.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/11/2011 11:12:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 11:07:43 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 10:57:45 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 10:49:26 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...

I'm not personally familiar with any advocates of an "open border" approach. What is wrong with allowing legal immigrant to contribute taxes and workforce? You assume the immigrant will necessarily be a drain on society.

What is wrong with an open border approach? We have an open border with Canada. Canadian immigrants can come in at any time. So too should Mexican immigrants if they want to.

Canadians may come in at any time, but they can't stay as long they want. There is a process of citizenship or work visas or marriage for anyone who wants to stay long term. Vacationing and visiting family is fine, but moving long term should entail some form of registration. I imagine open borders as a sort of free for all without any form of government regulation on the movement of labor and/or consumers (those who work are also consumers). If I am wrong, feel free to tell me.

I guess you are right. In that case, I don't support an open border. But I would support the Mexican border being exactly the same as how the Canadian border is currently.
jimtimmy
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9/11/2011 11:42:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 10:49:26 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:45:28 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:43:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 9/11/2011 9:02:04 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
My view on this is that free immigration is not compatible with the welfare state...

I would say that this would cause a lot of low skilled immigrants to come to whatever country, just to receieve these welfare benefits... This is known as Adverse Selection...

Any thoughts?

What about free immigration as it relates to H1-B visa candidates that supply America with specialized workers like biotech, law, and medicine? It would increase their incentive to remain in America instead of taking their abilities to another country.

That's not really free immigration... sounds more like selective, or restricted, immigration, which I am all for...

I'm not personally familiar with any advocates of an "open border" approach. What is wrong with allowing legal immigrant to contribute taxes and workforce? You assume the immigrant will necessarily be a drain on society.

I think the problem is that open immigration is a drain on society... Immigration increases crime, poverty, etc... Of course, I am for selective immigration, which means that high skilled immigrants, the ones that help society, will still be able to come...

When you have open borders, you are dealing with forced assimilation for natives... People have every right to restrict immigration into their own communities/nations...
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/12/2011 5:21:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Immigration and the welfare state is pretty much destroying Britian. We have a large class of natives who feel that certain jobs are beneath them, and as they are paid not to do them they are. Their jobs are taken by immigrants, creating a permanantly unemployed underclass.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/12/2011 5:48:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/11/2011 11:08:25 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 9/11/2011 11:00:49 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The incompatibility of open immigration from Mexico with the welfare state speaks in favor of open immigration. Speeds along the decision to get rid of the welfare state.

I think it will work if welfare is restricted to US citizens who actually have a US passport.
A passport? Why would they need a passport?

Welfare states eat themselves anyway, immigrants make it faster is all.

I imagine open borders as a sort of free for all without any form of government regulation on the movement of labor and/or consumers
It's either that or perhaps a screening to check for terrorism/plague and you're good to go.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.