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Civil Disobedience

kelly224
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9/15/2011 9:16:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I just finished reading Thoreau's "Walden" yesterday, "Civil Disobedience" another one of his works was added as a bonus in the back of the book. I was amazed at how stark the comparison of government back then parallels with now, although it isn't as polarizing.

He talks about how people like Jefferson, and Franklin who had hands in forming the very first forms of organized government once the Revolutionary war ended. It always baffles me how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and so on can be so detailed in it's description of how the machine of government should run, but at the same time they had slaves, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Thoreau talks about pledging allegiance to a overnment who will throw you in jail for owing taxes, but give corporations slaps on the wrist for embezzling large sums of money from the coffers.

One particular passage caught my attention in particular, he talked about how he was jailed for not paying taxes, but rather than dread is incarceration, he felt trult free, because he did not cede, and he actually felt as though he won by being imprisoned.

This was a different take being as though so many people are locked down, and they are depressed because of it. This really isn't where I wanted to take this, but I just wanted to make this point because it caught me off guard.

In our society we conform, now I understand that in some occurences conformity may be fine, but why is it that we pledge a blind allegiance to doctrines which may be

1. Out dated
2. Never had the people's best interests at heart
3. Excludes a particular race
4. Allows the governmental officals that WE elect to steer legislation that best serves a select few, and also gives these mere mortals powers that can go unchecked
5. Have a military industial complex, this DISEASE is perpetuated by brainwashing our service men into thinking they are fighting for what is right, when in fact they are fighting to secure "intersts" for the Super Elites

Why do we pledge undying support of institutions that make little progress? This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that if goverment REALLY wanted to solve problems they could have done so by now...

what say you?
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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9/17/2011 11:29:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/15/2011 9:16:56 AM, kelly224 wrote:
I just finished reading Thoreau's "Walden" yesterday, "Civil Disobedience" another one of his works was added as a bonus in the back of the book. I was amazed at how stark the comparison of government back then parallels with now, although it isn't as polarizing.

He talks about how people like Jefferson, and Franklin who had hands in forming the very first forms of organized government once the Revolutionary war ended. It always baffles me how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and so on can be so detailed in it's description of how the machine of government should run, but at the same time they had slaves, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Thoreau talks about pledging allegiance to a overnment who will throw you in jail for owing taxes, but give corporations slaps on the wrist for embezzling large sums of money from the coffers.

One particular passage caught my attention in particular, he talked about how he was jailed for not paying taxes, but rather than dread is incarceration, he felt trult free, because he did not cede, and he actually felt as though he won by being imprisoned.

This was a different take being as though so many people are locked down, and they are depressed because of it. This really isn't where I wanted to take this, but I just wanted to make this point because it caught me off guard.

In our society we conform, now I understand that in some occurences conformity may be fine, but why is it that we pledge a blind allegiance to doctrines which may be

1. Out dated
2. Never had the people's best interests at heart
3. Excludes a particular race
4. Allows the governmental officals that WE elect to steer legislation that best serves a select few, and also gives these mere mortals powers that can go unchecked
5. Have a military industial complex, this DISEASE is perpetuated by brainwashing our service men into thinking they are fighting for what is right, when in fact they are fighting to secure "intersts" for the Super Elites

Why do we pledge undying support of institutions that make little progress? This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that if goverment REALLY wanted to solve problems they could have done so by now...

what say you?

Interesting perspective. Civil disobedience is an interesting concept, but today, it would lead to anarchy. Now that we have a almost stable government system in place, there are better ways to show discontent.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/18/2011 12:02:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/17/2011 11:29:53 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 9/15/2011 9:16:56 AM, kelly224 wrote:
I just finished reading Thoreau's "Walden" yesterday, "Civil Disobedience" another one of his works was added as a bonus in the back of the book. I was amazed at how stark the comparison of government back then parallels with now, although it isn't as polarizing.

He talks about how people like Jefferson, and Franklin who had hands in forming the very first forms of organized government once the Revolutionary war ended. It always baffles me how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and so on can be so detailed in it's description of how the machine of government should run, but at the same time they had slaves, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Thoreau talks about pledging allegiance to a overnment who will throw you in jail for owing taxes, but give corporations slaps on the wrist for embezzling large sums of money from the coffers.

One particular passage caught my attention in particular, he talked about how he was jailed for not paying taxes, but rather than dread is incarceration, he felt trult free, because he did not cede, and he actually felt as though he won by being imprisoned.

This was a different take being as though so many people are locked down, and they are depressed because of it. This really isn't where I wanted to take this, but I just wanted to make this point because it caught me off guard.

In our society we conform, now I understand that in some occurences conformity may be fine, but why is it that we pledge a blind allegiance to doctrines which may be

1. Out dated
2. Never had the people's best interests at heart
3. Excludes a particular race
4. Allows the governmental officals that WE elect to steer legislation that best serves a select few, and also gives these mere mortals powers that can go unchecked
5. Have a military industial complex, this DISEASE is perpetuated by brainwashing our service men into thinking they are fighting for what is right, when in fact they are fighting to secure "intersts" for the Super Elites

Why do we pledge undying support of institutions that make little progress? This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that if goverment REALLY wanted to solve problems they could have done so by now...

what say you?

Interesting perspective. Civil disobedience is an interesting concept, but today, it would lead to anarchy. Now that we have a almost stable government system in place, there are better ways to show discontent.

Bullsh!t on the whole "stable government system". Your from India right? That place is full on corrupt.
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gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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9/18/2011 1:40:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 12:02:25 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/17/2011 11:29:53 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 9/15/2011 9:16:56 AM, kelly224 wrote:
I just finished reading Thoreau's "Walden" yesterday, "Civil Disobedience" another one of his works was added as a bonus in the back of the book. I was amazed at how stark the comparison of government back then parallels with now, although it isn't as polarizing.

He talks about how people like Jefferson, and Franklin who had hands in forming the very first forms of organized government once the Revolutionary war ended. It always baffles me how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and so on can be so detailed in it's description of how the machine of government should run, but at the same time they had slaves, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Thoreau talks about pledging allegiance to a overnment who will throw you in jail for owing taxes, but give corporations slaps on the wrist for embezzling large sums of money from the coffers.

One particular passage caught my attention in particular, he talked about how he was jailed for not paying taxes, but rather than dread is incarceration, he felt trult free, because he did not cede, and he actually felt as though he won by being imprisoned.

This was a different take being as though so many people are locked down, and they are depressed because of it. This really isn't where I wanted to take this, but I just wanted to make this point because it caught me off guard.

In our society we conform, now I understand that in some occurences conformity may be fine, but why is it that we pledge a blind allegiance to doctrines which may be

1. Out dated
2. Never had the people's best interests at heart
3. Excludes a particular race
4. Allows the governmental officals that WE elect to steer legislation that best serves a select few, and also gives these mere mortals powers that can go unchecked
5. Have a military industial complex, this DISEASE is perpetuated by brainwashing our service men into thinking they are fighting for what is right, when in fact they are fighting to secure "intersts" for the Super Elites

Why do we pledge undying support of institutions that make little progress? This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that if goverment REALLY wanted to solve problems they could have done so by now...

what say you?

Interesting perspective. Civil disobedience is an interesting concept, but today, it would lead to anarchy. Now that we have a almost stable government system in place, there are better ways to show discontent.

Bullsh!t on the whole "stable government system". Your from India right? That place is full on corrupt.

Corruption, however, does not lead to instability. It challenges the stability. Having an almost stable government system means that it will not collapse if we try to impose our will on the government. We wont need civil disobedience.

That will only need to anarchy, because it's shaking the basic structure on which the country rests.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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9/18/2011 1:57:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion."
~ Oscar Wilde
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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9/18/2011 5:42:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Civil disobedience is only really effective when waged upon a civilized society. Civil disobedience in North Korea wouldn't get you very much, but civil disobedience if well organized might be effective in South Korea. There needs to be some value to human life for it to have any power in changing the existing structure.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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9/18/2011 10:33:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 1:40:20 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 9/18/2011 12:02:25 AM, darkkermit wrote:

Bullsh!t on the whole "stable government system". Your from India right? That place is full on corrupt.

Corruption, however, does not lead to instability.

History shows otherwise. Roman Empire and other civilizations collapsed due to corruption.

It challenges the stability. Having an almost stable government system means that it will not collapse if we try to impose our will on the government.

That's what civil disobedience is. Imposing your will on the government.

We wont need civil disobedience.

Why not? In order to fix corruption in the government the majority needs to be exposed to the issue, care about the issue, and vote for the "right" people.

Civil disobedience is a much quicker process since it exposes people to the idea in a much quicker way, and it becomes much less efficient to defend unjust laws. Arresting people becomes an expensive process and as a result, law makers are more likely to remove unjust laws.


That will only need to anarchy, because it's shaking the basic structure on which the country rests.

Unfounded assumption. Civil disobedience has been done before in the United States and in India. I'm sure you know your own history then I do, but India received independence from Great Britain. Blacks in the United States used civil disobedience to create a civil rights movement.
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gerrandesquire
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9/18/2011 12:10:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 10:33:12 AM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/18/2011 1:40:20 AM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 9/18/2011 12:02:25 AM, darkkermit wrote:

Bullsh!t on the whole "stable government system". Your from India right? That place is full on corrupt.

Corruption, however, does not lead to instability.

History shows otherwise. Roman Empire and other civilizations collapsed due to corruption.

That was an autocratic government. Of course corruption in an autocracy is bound to lead to decline. Though in Roman empire, it was a culmination of many other factors- the major of which was that the people lacked activism, and they gradually entrusted the role of defending the empire to mercenaries, who turned on them.

It challenges the stability. Having an almost stable government system means that it will not collapse if we try to impose our will on the government.

That's what civil disobedience is. Imposing your will on the government.

Civil disobedience is refusing to obey certain laws of the country .

We wont need civil disobedience.

Why not? In order to fix corruption in the government the majority needs to be exposed to the issue, care about the issue, and vote for the "right" people.

Where does civil disobedience fit into this? Peaceful protests ARE allowed in a democracy, Civil disobedience is needed when the government refuses to listen to your peaceful protests. In a democracy, protests would be heard. I guess, if they aren't, civil disobedience would be the next option, but essentially, i feel it isn't required.

Civil disobedience is a much quicker process since it exposes people to the idea in a much quicker way, and it becomes much less efficient to defend unjust laws. Arresting people becomes an expensive process and as a result, law makers are more likely to remove unjust laws.

Yes,but it may quickly lead to lawlessness. And though it is a good principle, it is best left as a 'or else'. Protesting peacefully is a better option, and it will quickly lead to civil disobedience if the government becomes aggressive. looking at it as the first option shakes the foundations of a democracy.


That will only need to anarchy, because it's shaking the basic structure on which the country rests.

Unfounded assumption. Civil disobedience has been done before in the United States and in India. I'm sure you know your own history then I do, but India received independence from Great Britain. Blacks in the United States used civil disobedience to create a civil rights movement.

Anarchy as in lawlessness. I do not refuse the fact that were really important that time, but today, they are less needed. Civil disobedience should not be a source of attack.
darkkermit
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9/18/2011 12:38:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 12:10:56 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:

That was an autocratic government. Of course corruption in an autocracy is bound to lead to decline. Though in Roman empire, it was a culmination of many other factors- the major of which was that the people lacked activism, and they gradually entrusted the role of defending the empire to mercenaries, who turned on them.

It still had a senate. Also, if you don't like Rome as your example, Greek can be another example. Also note that many dictatorships form as a result of failed policies of democracies.

http://www.dl.ket.org...

It challenges the stability. Having an almost stable government system means that it will not collapse if we try to impose our will on the government.

That's what civil disobedience is. Imposing your will on the government.

Civil disobedience is refusing to obey certain laws of the country .

Which is good. It forces policy makers to change laws and for the public to think if these laws are justified or not.

Where does civil disobedience fit into this? Peaceful protests ARE allowed in a democracy

They are allowed in nations that allow freedom of speech. A democracy does not necessarily have to allow freedom of speech.

, Civil disobedience is needed when the government refuses to listen to your peaceful protests.

A government does not have the right to listen to them, just allow you to have the protest. Many protesters spew nonsense bullsh!t and don't have any idea what they're talking about. They still have the right to speak though.

In a democracy, protests would be heard. I guess, if they aren't, civil disobedience would be the next option, but essentially, i feel it isn't required.

Again, like I said earlier. Protesting is not an effective strategy either.

Civil disobedience is a much quicker process since it exposes people to the idea in a much quicker way, and it becomes much less efficient to defend unjust laws. Arresting people becomes an expensive process and as a result, law makers are more likely to remove unjust laws.

Yes,but it may quickly lead to lawlessness. And though it is a good principle, it is best left as a 'or else'. Protesting peacefully is a better option, and it will quickly lead to civil disobedience if the government becomes aggressive. looking at it as the first option shakes the foundations of a democracy.

As I stated, peaceful protesting is not always an effective strategy, censorship can occur, and civil disobedience is an effective tool. The assertion that civil disobedience leads to lawlessness is a massive slippery slope fallacy. Some laws are unfair and corrupt. Should people have turned in jews during the holocaust because it was the law? No.

That will only need to anarchy, because it's shaking the basic structure on which the country rests.

Unfounded assumption. Civil disobedience has been done before in the United States and in India. I'm sure you know your own history then I do, but India received independence from Great Britain. Blacks in the United States used civil disobedience to create a civil rights movement.

Anarchy as in lawlessness. I do not refuse the fact that were really important that time, but today, they are less needed. Civil disobedience should not be a source of attack.

Disobeying some laws does not mean lawlessness. I've done some illegal drugs in the past but for the most part I'm a law-abiding citizen. I don't steal, murder, rape, or commit other crimes which should be illegal.
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seraine
Posts: 734
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9/18/2011 6:19:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 1:57:10 AM, FREEDO wrote:
"Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion."
~ Oscar Wilde

* Insert Mao Zedong/ Bolshevik here*
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/18/2011 6:51:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am completely for civil disobedience, but probably for different reasons. I just don't see any reason why the State has any justifiable authority over me or anyone. I will stress though that I do not advocate violent disobedience(killing cops, blowing up buildings). That kind of behavior just makes all dissidents look bad.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,043
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9/18/2011 6:53:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 6:51:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I am completely for civil disobedience, but probably for different reasons. I just don't see any reason why the State has any justifiable authority over me or anyone. I will stress though that I do not advocate violent disobedience(killing cops, blowing up buildings). That kind of behavior just makes all dissidents look bad.

"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people." - V
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/18/2011 7:00:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 6:51:38 PM, socialpinko wrote:
I am completely for civil disobedience, but probably for different reasons. I just don't see any reason why the State has any justifiable authority over me or anyone. I will stress though that I do not advocate violent disobedience(killing cops, blowing up buildings). That kind of behavior just makes all dissidents look bad.

Good lord. Your belief is anarchy, and it makes no sense. In Common Sense, Paine writes that government exists solely because individuals cannot be ruled by moral virtue alone. If we define government as any institution given power and authority by the people to protect their safety, well being, and interests, then it is impossible to live without a government. Anything that accomplishes the aforementioned acts is a government. If the aforementioned acts are not accomplished, people will die and suffer from a lack of implementation of justice and deterrents.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DetectableNinja
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9/18/2011 7:25:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

This.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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9/18/2011 7:39:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

We have a totalitarian-esque style on the world stage--we act as though our govt. is the best and if you don't subscribe to it then we'll just have to free the sh!t outta you then.

And at home, I think our main issue is that we act as though America is great BECAUSE it's America.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
socialpinko
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9/18/2011 7:43:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 7:00:23 PM, 000ike wrote:

Good lord. Your belief is anarchy, and it makes no sense. In Common Sense, Paine writes that government exists solely because individuals cannot be ruled by moral virtue alone. If we define government as any institution given power and authority by the people to protect their safety, well being, and interests, then it is impossible to live without a government. Anything that accomplishes the aforementioned acts is a government. If the aforementioned acts are not accomplished, people will die and suffer from a lack of implementation of justice and deterrents.

No it's not and that conclusion only comes from a radical redefinition of government. Government is a sole monopolist on force, defense, and law. If why ou say is true then a voluntary arbitrator is a government, my dad is a government, a church is a government, and my boss at work is a government. The difference between my examples and an actual government is that one voluntarily accepts the declarations of a boss or a church, etc.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:07:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

Shhhhh, don't ask questions, just be outraged. It's the American way.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
000ike
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9/18/2011 8:11:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:07:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

Shhhhh, don't ask questions, just be outraged. It's the American way.

lol you have a funny way of arguing. Please tell me what totalitarian ideas the American people have so I can refute or agree with them.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
DetectableNinja
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9/18/2011 8:12:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:11:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 8:07:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

Shhhhh, don't ask questions, just be outraged. It's the American way.

lol you have a funny way of arguing. Please tell me what totalitarian ideas the American people have so I can refute or agree with them.

Be quiet and eat your freedom fries! Anyway, I answered that question earlier, if you care to respond.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:19:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:11:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 8:07:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

Shhhhh, don't ask questions, just be outraged. It's the American way.

lol you have a funny way of arguing. Please tell me what totalitarian ideas the American people have so I can refute or agree with them.

I don't feel like substantiating a claim that was pulled out of my @ss for shock value.

I just hate the government.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:20:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Which is the American way.

You aren't an American if you love the government.

And before you say, "No true haggis eater", go hug a porcupine.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
DetectableNinja
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9/18/2011 8:22:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:20:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Which is the American way.

You aren't an American if you love the government.

And before you say, "No true haggis eater", go hug a porcupine.

I am confus: are you not an American, or are you that much of an expat?

Because, if it's the latter, I admire that.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:28:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:22:31 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/18/2011 8:20:09 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Which is the American way.

You aren't an American if you love the government.

And before you say, "No true haggis eater", go hug a porcupine.

I am confus: are you not an American, or are you that much of an expat?

Because, if it's the latter, I admire that.

....Maybe...

http://i.imgur.com...
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/18/2011 8:28:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 8:12:46 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 9/18/2011 8:11:59 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 8:07:10 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:29:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/18/2011 7:05:56 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
When the people are totalitarian minded, the government is bound to be that way.

The problem in a place like America.. The people think they care about freedom, but what they really care about is forcing their will onto others. They are deluded into thinking that restricting freedom gives more freedom.

A bunch of self serving twats they are. When you have a nation of people who think like that, the government is going to reflect this. It will keep moving in a totalitarian direction until one day, the curtains fall down, knocking down the stage props, and there is nothing left for the audience to watch but the cold brick wall at the back of the theater. There will be no charade.

The government is a big reflection of the people in my opinion. Well intended totalitarian dipsh!ts.

Just curious, what are these alleged totalitarian ideas that the American people have?

Shhhhh, don't ask questions, just be outraged. It's the American way.

lol you have a funny way of arguing. Please tell me what totalitarian ideas the American people have so I can refute or agree with them.

Be quiet and eat your freedom fries! Anyway, I answered that question earlier, if you care to respond.

I read your comment, you replied nearly the same way Alfonzo just did, you gave me nothing to work with. No instance, no fact, just a conclusion without the premises that granted it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:39:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't like laws. That's basically my reason. I don't like the fact that I have to do a mountain of paperwork to start a business, I don't like the fact that I have to pay taxes, a I don't like the fact that I have to buy a permit to do just about anything, I don't like the fact that I am required to buy licenses, stickers, and all manners of stupid little things in order to be hassle free from the government.

Then you know, I also live in Illinois which has a notoriously high incarceration rate for victimless crimes.

On my home planet, we don't usually have to deal with this sort of bullsh!t. If something gets done, we get it done. People will voluntarily pay to get sh!t done. No need to break knees, man.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/18/2011 8:41:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Basically, I shouldn't even be discussing politics, because I've lost hope in humanities ability to govern itself. I'm waiting for Techno Allah to deliver us from our own stupidity.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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9/19/2011 7:38:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/18/2011 12:38:29 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/18/2011 12:10:56 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:

That was an autocratic government. Of course corruption in an autocracy is bound to lead to decline. Though in Roman empire, it was a culmination of many other factors- the major of which was that the people lacked activism, and they gradually entrusted the role of defending the empire to mercenaries, who turned on them.

It still had a senate. Also, if you don't like Rome as your example, Greek can be another example. Also note that many dictatorships form as a result of failed policies of democracies.

http://www.dl.ket.org...

It's gross generalization. Many democracies form because of failed dictatorships. It doesn't really prove anything. And even greek empire, the reasons of it's downfall is not really corruption. The military and economic changes the top one. And even if you come up with a civilization, those were different times. When the stability was lacking since empires continued expanding their empires. If you can provide an example where this wasn't the case, I'd gladly consider it.

It challenges the stability. Having an almost stable government system means that it will not collapse if we try to impose our will on the government.

That's what civil disobedience is. Imposing your will on the government.

Civil disobedience is refusing to obey certain laws of the country .

Which is good. It forces policy makers to change laws and for the public to think if these laws are justified or not.

I am not saying that civil disobedience is bad. Or questioning its usefulness. I am saying that there are better ways to raise our voices. The OP challenged the government's role or its position.Civil disobedience should be the last option, Peaceful protests are a better way to show your discontent. Civil disobedience is challenging govt. position, which is fine if they don't listen to your protests or adequately answer them, but should not be the first option.


Where does civil disobedience fit into this? Peaceful protests ARE allowed in a democracy

They are allowed in nations that allow freedom of speech. A democracy does not necessarily have to allow freedom of speech.

Without freedom of speech, democracy is lost.

, Civil disobedience is needed when the government refuses to listen to your peaceful protests.

A government does not have the right to listen to them, just allow you to have the protest. Many protesters spew nonsense bullsh!t and don't have any idea what they're talking about. They still have the right to speak though.

It's the duty government to address the protests aimed at them Even if they are spewing bullsh!t.

In a democracy, protests would be heard. I guess, if they aren't, civil disobedience would be the next option, but essentially, i feel it isn't required.

Again, like I said earlier. Protesting is not an effective strategy either.


Civil disobedience is a much quicker process since it exposes people to the idea in a much quicker way, and it becomes much less efficient to defend unjust laws. Arresting people becomes an expensive process and as a result, law makers are more likely to remove unjust laws.

Civil disobedience is a weapon that would be useful only when scarcely used.

Yes,but it may quickly lead to lawlessness. And though it is a good principle, it is best left as a 'or else'. Protesting peacefully is a better option, and it will quickly lead to civil disobedience if the government becomes aggressive. looking at it as the first option shakes the foundations of a democracy.

As I stated, peaceful protesting is not always an effective strategy, censorship can occur, and civil disobedience is an effective tool. The assertion that civil disobedience leads to lawlessness is a massive slippery slope fallacy. Some laws are unfair and corrupt. Should people have turned in jews during the holocaust because it was the law? No.

You are using fail examples. Was Germany a democracy during that time? No. Would the protests have been heard? No. Am I saying we shouldn't question the laws? No. We shouldn't shake the foundations of democracy on every non-agreeable matter. Protests.

That will only need to anarchy, because it's shaking the basic structure on which the country rests.

Unfounded assumption. Civil disobedience has been done before in the United States and in India. I'm sure you know your own history then I do, but India received independence from Great Britain. Blacks in the United States used civil disobedience to create a civil rights movement.

Anarchy as in lawlessness. I do not refuse the fact that were really important that time, but today, they are less needed. Civil disobedience should not be a source of attack.

Disobeying some laws does not mean lawlessness. I've done some illegal drugs in the past but for the most part I'm a law-abiding citizen. I don't steal, murder, rape, or commit other crimes which should be illegal.

Disobeying laws = loss of fear of jails = glorifying jail life= lawlessness.
kelly224
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9/19/2011 12:12:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/17/2011 11:29:53 PM, gerrandesquire wrote:
At 9/15/2011 9:16:56 AM, kelly224 wrote:
I just finished reading Thoreau's "Walden" yesterday, "Civil Disobedience" another one of his works was added as a bonus in the back of the book. I was amazed at how stark the comparison of government back then parallels with now, although it isn't as polarizing.

He talks about how people like Jefferson, and Franklin who had hands in forming the very first forms of organized government once the Revolutionary war ended. It always baffles me how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and so on can be so detailed in it's description of how the machine of government should run, but at the same time they had slaves, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Thoreau talks about pledging allegiance to a overnment who will throw you in jail for owing taxes, but give corporations slaps on the wrist for embezzling large sums of money from the coffers.

One particular passage caught my attention in particular, he talked about how he was jailed for not paying taxes, but rather than dread is incarceration, he felt trult free, because he did not cede, and he actually felt as though he won by being imprisoned.

This was a different take being as though so many people are locked down, and they are depressed because of it. This really isn't where I wanted to take this, but I just wanted to make this point because it caught me off guard.

In our society we conform, now I understand that in some occurences conformity may be fine, but why is it that we pledge a blind allegiance to doctrines which may be

1. Out dated
2. Never had the people's best interests at heart
3. Excludes a particular race
4. Allows the governmental officals that WE elect to steer legislation that best serves a select few, and also gives these mere mortals powers that can go unchecked
5. Have a military industial complex, this DISEASE is perpetuated by brainwashing our service men into thinking they are fighting for what is right, when in fact they are fighting to secure "intersts" for the Super Elites

Why do we pledge undying support of institutions that make little progress? This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that if goverment REALLY wanted to solve problems they could have done so by now...

what say you?

Interesting perspective. Civil disobedience is an interesting concept, but today, it would lead to anarchy. Now that we have a almost stable government system in place, there are better ways to show discontent.

stable government?...what country has this on this planet?