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France Bans Islamic Public Prayer

FREEDO
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9/19/2011 3:15:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Jeez, what is going on with France lately? It's mindless Nationalism almost matches America now.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/19/2011 3:20:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't know if they are specifically targeting muslims or banning ALL public prayer. If it is the latter then it is fair enough. If they are targeting one religion, then it is definitely unfair.
innomen
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9/19/2011 3:20:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 3:15:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Jeez, what is going on with France lately? It's mindless Nationalism almost matches America now.

They are far worse than the US in this sort of thing. Sarkozy has made it quite clear that the country will always remain a French country and has been taking drastic steps in that direction. He hasn't just limited it to the Muslims either, but has become increasingly franco-centric by policy, and has been receiving great support from all sectors of the country. There is a great sense of superiority among the French at the expense of the non-French, and an open door toward xenophobia. Muslims, Gypsies and Jews are feeling the greatest pressure by the French right now.
Mirza
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9/19/2011 3:28:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 3:20:16 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I don't know if they are specifically targeting muslims or banning ALL public prayer. If it is the latter then it is fair enough.
No, it's not fair even then. It specifically targets religion. Whether you have a public party or prayer is the same in principle. But of course, only the prayer seems to be the problem. The French government has no moral right to impose such aggressive laws that go against our very core human rights.
FREEDO
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9/19/2011 3:32:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 3:20:52 AM, innomen wrote:
At 9/19/2011 3:15:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Jeez, what is going on with France lately? It's mindless Nationalism almost matches America now.

They are far worse than the US in this sort of thing. Sarkozy has made it quite clear that the country will always remain a French country and has been taking drastic steps in that direction. He hasn't just limited it to the Muslims either, but has become increasingly franco-centric by policy, and has been receiving great support from all sectors of the country. There is a great sense of superiority among the French at the expense of the non-French, and an open door toward xenophobia. Muslims, Gypsies and Jews are feeling the greatest pressure by the French right now.

GERMANY MUCH.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/19/2011 3:36:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 3:28:45 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/19/2011 3:20:16 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
I don't know if they are specifically targeting muslims or banning ALL public prayer. If it is the latter then it is fair enough.
No, it's not fair even then. It specifically targets religion. Whether you have a public party or prayer is the same in principle. But of course, only the prayer seems to be the problem. The French government has no moral right to impose such aggressive laws that go against our very core human rights.

Ok, I assumed that they were banning all public gatherings, not necessarily just "prayer". But if it is only prayer that is banned but not other sorts of gatherings where a number of people come and sit down on the streets, then I see your point.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2011 7:43:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 2:57:32 AM, Mirza wrote:
http://muslimvillage.com...

Another example of their stupid, fascist, politics. Welcome to the West, this is were all the freedom in the world lies.

The problem is that radical Muslims take advantage of our freedoms in order to destroy them. Moderate Muslims, especially ones that are not too bright instantly resort to a tribalistic response. They cry about France being fascist, yet compare the situation of a French Muslim to an Egyptian Christian... which contradicts the koran. Not a word of protest.

Your position is absurd, arrogant and hypocritical.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2011 7:44:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 3:15:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Jeez, what is going on with France lately? It's mindless Nationalism almost matches America now.

It's trying to survive, it has belatedly realised that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilisation of an Islamic underclass.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
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9/19/2011 7:50:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The way I read it, they converted an old fire hall and made it into a place used for prayer, because the streets were becoming too congested with people kicking off their shoes and bowing to Mecca. Muslim village has portrayed this all wrong. I think it was an OK move.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
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http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/19/2011 7:56:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:43:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 2:57:32 AM, Mirza wrote:
http://muslimvillage.com...

Another example of their stupid, fascist, politics. Welcome to the West, this is were all the freedom in the world lies.

The problem is that radical Muslims take advantage of our freedoms in order to destroy them.
Very few are radical in contrast to the overall Muslim population. The point you're trying to make has failed, as usual. Try something new.

Moderate Muslims, especially ones that are not too bright instantly resort to a tribalistic response. They cry about France being fascist, yet compare the situation of a French Muslim to an Egyptian Christian... which contradicts the koran. Not a word of protest.
Who says there's not a word of protest? I'd challenge you to a freaking debate had I not felt sorry for your utterly stupid position. It takes me a few sources to prove you wrong about who moderate Muslims are. I'll let you think for yourself.

Your position is absurd, arrogant and hypocritical.
If you ever tried to remember how many times both I and other Muslims have criticized so-called Islamic countries, you would remain silent. You're the hypocritical one here. On one hand you want Muslims to stand up against radicals, on the other hand you have not done a single thing to realize that they already do so.
Mirza
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9/19/2011 7:57:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:44:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It's trying to survive, it has belatedly realised that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilisation of an Islamic underclass.
Let's take this into another perspective.

USA is trying to survive, it has belatedly realized that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilization of a black underclass.

You see how much this response is idiotic?
Mirza
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9/19/2011 7:58:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:50:42 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
The way I read it, they converted an old fire hall and made it into a place used for prayer, because the streets were becoming too congested with people kicking off their shoes and bowing to Mecca. Muslim village has portrayed this all wrong. I think it was an OK move.
Ah, and it's OK for gay parades with nude, ugly dressed/painted, people to take place everywhere around the world, but Muslims leading peaceful prayers is not fine. Taking off shoes is a big deal, oh my God.

Hit the road.
quarterexchange
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9/19/2011 8:12:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:58:34 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/19/2011 7:50:42 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
The way I read it, they converted an old fire hall and made it into a place used for prayer, because the streets were becoming too congested with people kicking off their shoes and bowing to Mecca. Muslim village has portrayed this all wrong. I think it was an OK move.
Ah, and it's OK for gay parades with nude, ugly dressed/painted, people to take place everywhere around the world, but Muslims leading peaceful prayers is not fine. Taking off shoes is a big deal, oh my God.

Hit the road.

That made me laugh.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
lotus_flower
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9/19/2011 8:40:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:58:34 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/19/2011 7:50:42 AM, lotus_flower wrote:
The way I read it, they converted an old fire hall and made it into a place used for prayer, because the streets were becoming too congested with people kicking off their shoes and bowing to Mecca. Muslim village has portrayed this all wrong. I think it was an OK move.
Ah, and it's OK for gay parades with nude, ugly dressed/painted, people to take place everywhere around the world, but Muslims leading peaceful prayers is not fine. Taking off shoes is a big deal, oh my God.

Hit the road.

That isn't what I meant. They did this out of concern for public safety. I thought it was VERY respectful for France to take an old fire hall and convert it into a safe place for Muslims to bow and pray. THIS in unsafe. http://www.ndtv.com...
I don't give a damn if they are praying to Allah, Jesus, Krishna, or the flying flipping spaghetti monster! it still isn't safe.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
innomen
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9/19/2011 8:42:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:44:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 3:15:29 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Jeez, what is going on with France lately? It's mindless Nationalism almost matches America now.

It's trying to survive, it has belatedly realised that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilisation of an Islamic underclass.

That iswhat's going on, and because it is "belatedly" it's coming off as overly reactionary. Sarkozy makes no apologies about it being France, you know where French people live. (Personally that's my only real complaint with the country -jk).
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2011 8:50:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:56:00 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/19/2011 7:43:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 2:57:32 AM, Mirza wrote:
http://muslimvillage.com...

Another example of their stupid, fascist, politics. Welcome to the West, this is were all the freedom in the world lies.

The problem is that radical Muslims take advantage of our freedoms in order to destroy them.
Very few are radical in contrast to the overall Muslim population. The point you're trying to make has failed, as usual. Try something new.

I made no reference to the ratio of radical Muslims to moderate Muslims, try something new... like intellectual honesty.

Do you deny that there is a movement of radical Muslims attempting to destroy western values?


Moderate Muslims, especially ones that are not too bright instantly resort to a tribalistic response. They cry about France being fascist, yet compare the situation of a French Muslim to an Egyptian Christian... which contradicts the koran. Not a word of protest.
Who says there's not a word of protest? I'd challenge you to a freaking debate had I not felt sorry for your utterly stupid position. It takes me a few sources to prove you wrong about who moderate Muslims are. I'll let you think for yourself.

You would not and will not challenge me to a debate, I have been trying to bait you into a debate for months, lets cast aside childish notions that you have any confidence in your views. The "not a word of protest" was ordinary conversational hyperbole.

You are here whining that France is restricting public worship, why are you not complaining that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are violating the Koran by restricting freedom of religion?

Same thing about the 9-11 colouring book, the rage against that far outweighs the rage against 9-11 being conducted in the name of Islam. Therein lays the problem.

Your position is absurd, arrogant and hypocritical.
If you ever tried to remember how many times both I and other Muslims have criticized so-called Islamic countries, you would remain silent. You're the hypocritical one here. On one hand you want Muslims to stand up against radicals, on the other hand you have not done a single thing to realize that they already do so.

They generally remain silent, too weak to follow their own convictions and you know it.

This is why 'we' need to start treating Muslims with a wide brush, if they have no interest in the nuances of their religion and do not seek to distance themselves from radical Islam why should we care?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/19/2011 8:51:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:57:14 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/19/2011 7:44:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It's trying to survive, it has belatedly realised that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilisation of an Islamic underclass.
Let's take this into another perspective.

USA is trying to survive, it has belatedly realized that it is being destroyed from within by the mobilization of a black underclass.

You see how much this response is idiotic?

It is idiotic because it is not true...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2011 8:58:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Do you think the French woke up one day and thought... "Zut alors... there is how you say... not much wrong with zee country, sacre bleu, let me twiddle mah moustache of evil... aha zee Muslims they are perfectly fine... mah gallic bile does tell me to persecute them!"

Oh do you think they woke up one day and got upset about the terrorism, the gangs, the riots, the sex slaves, the destruction of culture?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Lordknukle
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9/19/2011 11:00:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
(smileyface)
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/19/2011 11:13:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
@Cerebral, do you realize that the terrorists in the middle-east are not real muslims? They are wackos who use the name of Islam to commit their terrorist acts. Real muslims who are actually religious are peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

French muslim to Egyptian Christian: why must they be compared? I don't know if Egypt is even a secular country but France certainly is and it encompasses all religions. An Islamic country in the middle east cannot be compared to a highly developed secular country in Europe.

"Tribalistic response": Do you know that many muslims spoke out against and denounced 9/11? They only band together when they feel their rights are legitimately violated. I don't necessarily think what France did was wrong, but I definitely disagree with what you are saying.

"Western values"- What value are those? What is the "west"? Aren't muslims living in France and the US not included in your definition of "west"?

"Oh do you think they woke up one day and got upset about the terrorism, the gangs, the riots, the sex slaves, the destruction of culture?"
And you believe Muslims are responsible for all of the above?
Ragnar_Rahl
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9/19/2011 11:16:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If you ever tried to remember how many times both I and other Muslims have criticized so-called Islamic countries
France here sucks and Sarkozy's office oughta be bombed (Why they'd even make the law so stupidly is beyond me-- my first thought was "Why not just ban it in the street instead of everywhere outdoors and cite traffic as a justification? That would actually sound reasonable.")-- but whatever happened to the Mirza who was all "Well, the Muslim countries don't claim to be countries for non-Muslims, so they have a right not to be" ?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/19/2011 11:22:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 11:13:18 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
@Cerebral, do you realize that the terrorists in the middle-east are not real muslims? They are wackos who use the name of Islam to commit their terrorist acts. Real muslims who are actually religious are peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

I am sick and tired of hearing such comments really... you can use such sentiments to defend any creed. Oh the Popes not a real Christian because real Christians don't aid child molesters, oh Father Oreilly is not a real Christian because he gave money to the IRA etc etc. It's meaningless.

French muslim to Egyptian Christian: why must they be compared? I don't know if Egypt is even a secular country but France certainly is and it encompasses all religions. An Islamic country in the middle east cannot be compared to a highly developed secular country in Europe.

Hence the comparison, Mirza a Muslim is crying because a non-Muslim country is 'fascist' for imposing slight restrictions on the freedom of religion. Why isn't he crying about the plight of the Copts who are being persecuted by Muslims against the instructions of the koran?

"Tribalistic response": Do you know that many muslims spoke out against and denounced 9/11?

Many did, many did not.
It is a tribalistic response to claim that a liberal country is fascist when it offers more rights and freedoms than any country of your tribe.

They only band together when they feel their rights are legitimately violated. I don't necessarily think what France did was wrong, but I definitely disagree with what you are saying.

"Western values"- What value are those? What is the "west"? Aren't muslims living in France and the US not included in your definition of "west"?

Do we have to nitpick everything? We know that our opinions differ lets just cut to the chase.


"Oh do you think they woke up one day and got upset about the terrorism, the gangs, the riots, the sex slaves, the destruction of culture?"
And you believe Muslims are responsible for all of the above?

Yes.
Terrorism is a given, France has been badly effected by Muslim street gangs, riots, sex trafficking, organised crime... and there is a constant drip drip attempt to Islamicise Europe.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
kohai
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9/19/2011 11:24:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
While I dispise Islam and Muhommad, I agree with the OP. What France is doing is wrong.
1) Whatever has contradictory attributes does not exist.
2) The Biblical God has contradictory attributes.
3) Therefore, the Biblical God does not exist
CosmicAlfonzo
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9/19/2011 11:36:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is no hell, only France.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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9/19/2011 11:37:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 11:22:00 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 11:13:18 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
@Cerebral, do you realize that the terrorists in the middle-east are not real muslims? They are wackos who use the name of Islam to commit their terrorist acts. Real muslims who are actually religious are peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

I am sick and tired of hearing such comments really... you can use such sentiments to defend any creed. Oh the Popes not a real Christian because real Christians don't aid child molesters, oh Father Oreilly is not a real Christian because he gave money to the IRA etc etc. It's meaningless.

Yes you could use that against any religion. Are all christians murderers becuase a few christians have been convicted of murder? My point is that no religion is superior or inferior to any other. All religions that I have heard of are peaceful. There are some fanatics in every religion who are thieves, murderers, terrorists, gangsters etc. Such crime must not be associated with the person's religion as it has nothing to do with it. And other people of that religion must certainly not be discriminated against because of their actions.

French muslim to Egyptian Christian: why must they be compared? I don't know if Egypt is even a secular country but France certainly is and it encompasses all religions. An Islamic country in the middle east cannot be compared to a highly developed secular country in Europe.

Hence the comparison, Mirza a Muslim is crying because a non-Muslim country is 'fascist' for imposing slight restrictions on the freedom of religion. Why isn't he crying about the plight of the Copts who are being persecuted by Muslims against the instructions of the koran?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Mirza is a muslim living in France. The secular country where he lives must treat all religions equally, and if they don't then he has something to complain about as a French citizen. Why is it his problem what goes on in non-secular muslim countries?

"Tribalistic response": Do you know that many muslims spoke out against and denounced 9/11?

Many did, many did not.
It is a tribalistic response to claim that a liberal country is fascist when it offers more rights and freedoms than any country of your tribe.

I think the fallacy here is "your tribe". The muslims in France are French people and muslim and France are not mutually exclusive. Muslim and Christian are the terms you should be comparing.

They only band together when they feel their rights are legitimately violated. I don't necessarily think what France did was wrong, but I definitely disagree with what you are saying.

"Western values"- What value are those? What is the "west"? Aren't muslims living in France and the US not included in your definition of "west"?

Do we have to nitpick everything? We know that our opinions differ lets just cut to the chase.

It is not nitpicking. I really want to know if you don't consider French muslims "westerners" even if they are French citizens? What if they were born in France?

"Oh do you think they woke up one day and got upset about the terrorism, the gangs, the riots, the sex slaves, the destruction of culture?"
And you believe Muslims are responsible for all of the above?

Yes.
Terrorism is a given, France has been badly effected by Muslim street gangs, riots, sex trafficking, organised crime...
Again, this could be for any religion.

and there is a constant drip drip attempt to Islamicise Europe.
Europe is a secular continent. Muslims are as welcome as christians and frankly I find this comment absolutely ridiculous.
Mirza
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9/19/2011 11:38:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 8:50:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I made no reference to the ratio of radical Muslims to moderate Muslims, try something new... like intellectual honesty.
No, you're trying to make it look like the radicals are the representatives of Muslims.

Do you deny that there is a movement of radical Muslims attempting to destroy western values?
No, in fact I hear a lot about it in my country too. For example, in April I was at a conference where a Muslim scholar (Bilal Philips) gave a speech about Islam and society. When there was a break, a person behind me said to someone, "When they interview me, I'm gonna say they want to permit animal sex, we want to permit Shari'a!"

I came home and saw the news, and this exact same guy said those words on television. What these people do, i.e., radically try to enforce Islamic Law upon people who do not even agree upon it, are wronging, and I don't deny that they are quite a lot in numbers. But in contrast to the overall Muslim population, these are a minority.

You would not and will not challenge me to a debate, I have been trying to bait you into a debate for months, lets cast aside childish notions that you have any confidence in your views. The "not a word of protest" was ordinary conversational hyperbole.
Let's also cast wishful thinking aside, shall we?

You are here whining that France is restricting public worship, why are you not complaining that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are violating the Koran by restricting freedom of religion?
I am. But that's not news. I react to news now. As for Saudi Arabia and Egypt, I really don't know how they rationalize their laws. Maybe you should ask their diplomats.

Same thing about the 9-11 colouring book, the rage against that far outweighs the rage against 9-11 being conducted in the name of Islam. Therein lays the problem.
Not true. Many people have done a lot since 9/11 to create peace between Muslim and non-Muslims. The fact that you don't hear about them is your own problem. Maybe you should not rely much on the media.

They generally remain silent, too weak to follow their own convictions and you know it.
No they're not, they just have far more issues to deal with. You think Muslims' daily job should be to condemn terrorism. No it shouldn't.

This is why 'we' need to start treating Muslims with a wide brush, if they have no interest in the nuances of their religion and do not seek to distance themselves from radical Islam why should we care?
They do, you just require that they do more than everyone else in the world in order to condemn terrorism. They shouldn't, because they have other tasks in life.
Greyparrot
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9/19/2011 11:38:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 11:36:20 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
There is no hell, only France.

They should just accept that France will now be known as Franclim.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/19/2011 11:42:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd like to hear what Western values are. Clearly France restricts freedom of religion and self-ownership (can't wear burqa, etc.). Is that not an attempt to destroy Western "values"? And, what about the fact that the West interferes in what is going on in the world, and creates unrest in any country that opposes it? Also, since the West has caused such a large flood of emigrants from war-torn countries, why complain about people trying to seek help? You understand that if you vote to bomb Iraq and Afghanistan, you should also let a few innocents come and seek help? And the fact that they tend to do idiotic things is a mere result of their mental illnesses caused by dramatic events in their countries. But maybe it's too hard to connect the dots.