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Unilateral Palestinian Bid For Statehood

jat93
Posts: 1,440
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9/19/2011 6:24:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I go to a Jewish high school. Zionism is one of the school's core values, practically as valuable to them as the religion of Judaism itself. As such, you can imagine that when I get news related to Israel while in school, it's very one-sided.

From what I know about the Palestinian's unilateral bid for statehood, the Palestinian Authority directly contradicted an agreement they made in the Oslo Accords to negotiate peacefully in order to make any territorial changes. Now, apparently, the Palestinian Authority is going straight to the UN with the proposition for statehood... and refuses to engage in diplomatic talks with Israel.

To me it seems pretty black and white. If any territorial changes are to be made, they have to be discussed between Israelis and Palestinians first. However, I'm very interested in hearing the other side of the story. What's the argument for the Palestinian state that Palestinian President Abbas is pushing for in the UN? What's the other side of the story?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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9/19/2011 6:27:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Palestine should become a recognized state, but first, people on both sides of the conflict need to grow up. A real peace will NEVER materialize until they can put down their guns, motars, tanks, and whatever else they like to use, and actually talk about what needs to get done. The UN can't force it, the USA can't force it, none of the islamic nations can force it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/19/2011 6:32:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
What's the argument for the Palestinian state that Palestinian President Abbas is pushing for in the UN? What's the other side of the story?:

The other side of the story is that Palestinians are ethnic Syrians and Jordanians who were squatting in Palestine during Turkish rule. The Ottomans were deposed and the League of Nations granted Israel a homestate. Everytime they're given an inch, they demand a mile.

In short, it's politically and theologically... it will never end until one of them assimilates or one of them is dead.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/19/2011 6:46:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The other side is you have Hamas controlling half the "country" and Fatah controlling the other. Not the best time for statehood.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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9/19/2011 7:20:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:08:48 PM, jat93 wrote:
Is there anyone who can make a short argument for the Palestinian side?:

No good one. But you should YouTube "Pallywood" anyway. Quite compelling.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/19/2011 7:20:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:08:48 PM, jat93 wrote:
Is there anyone who can make a short argument for the Palestinian side?

From what I know about the Palestinian's unilateral bid for statehood, the Palestinian Authority directly contradicted an agreement they made in the Oslo Accords to negotiate peacefully in order to make any territorial changes.

Well.. I don't know the full extent of the agreements.. but I don't see how seeking recognition as a state from the UN contradicts holding peaceful negotiations with Israel to come to resolution on boundaries.

also.. the oslo accords was held in the early 90's..

whole different government now.. and since the israelis say it's not a state.. why would you expect another government to honor something agreed by other people?

Now, apparently, the Palestinian Authority is going straight to the UN with the proposition for statehood... and refuses to engage in diplomatic talks with Israel.

Refuses to engage in talks why?

last i checked (which, granted, was a while ago) netanyahu was against their having a state.. and yet was still insisting on calling israel an explicitly "jewish" state... not much reason to engage until the tone changes on at least one of the issues.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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9/19/2011 7:35:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:20:56 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
last i checked (which, granted, was a while ago) netanyahu was against their having a state.. and yet was still insisting on calling israel an explicitly "jewish" state... not much reason to engage until the tone changes on at least one of the issues.

also.. despite Saying they'd prevent jewish expansionists from settling disputed areas.. I've heard they've not really acted to prevent it much.. Despite very tightly controlling how the palestinians might expand.

This type thing going on continuously would make it seem like talks won't do much good at the moment.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/20/2011 11:20:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 6:24:28 PM, jat93 wrote:
I go to a Jewish high school. Zionism is one of the school's core values, practically as valuable to them as the religion of Judaism itself.

The two are mutually conflicting values.

As such, you can imagine that when I get news related to Israel while in school, it's very one-sided.

From what I know about the Palestinian's unilateral bid for statehood, the Palestinian Authority directly contradicted an agreement they made in the Oslo Accords to negotiate peacefully in order to make any territorial changes. Now, apparently, the Palestinian Authority is going straight to the UN with the proposition for statehood... and refuses to engage in diplomatic talks with Israel.

To me it seems pretty black and white. If any territorial changes are to be made, they have to be discussed between Israelis and Palestinians first. However, I'm very interested in hearing the other side of the story. What's the argument for the Palestinian state that Palestinian President Abbas is pushing for in the UN? What's the other side of the story?

The Palestinians have an automatic right for statehood under the charter of the League of Nations and the United Nations. The principle of national self-determination is enshrined in international law and it has been for 90 years.

Obviously in practical terms the Israelis and the Palestinians need to demarcate a border, but there is no valid means by which Israel may refuse to do so.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/20/2011 11:23:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 6:32:27 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
What's the argument for the Palestinian state that Palestinian President Abbas is pushing for in the UN? What's the other side of the story?:

The other side of the story is that Palestinians are ethnic Syrians and Jordanians who were squatting in Palestine during Turkish rule.

What of the native Arab pre-Turkish population which defined itself as either Syrian nor Jordanian (nor Palestine for that matter).

The Ottomans were deposed and the League of Nations granted Israel a homestate.

No it didn't.

Everytime they're given an inch, they demand a mile.


That is true of both sides really.

In short, it's politically and theologically... it will never end until one of them assimilates or one of them is dead.

Probably true.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/20/2011 11:28:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/19/2011 7:08:48 PM, jat93 wrote:
Is there anyone who can make a short argument for the Palestinian side?

The Arab population formed at ethnic majority in the area from the 7th to the 20th centuries. Modern Israelies claim to own the land because either some of their ancestors fifty generations previously lived there, or they are members of the same social club of the people that lived there 50 generations ago. Palestinians were forcibly evicted from their homeland. They are despised by all their neighbours. They have a right to national self-determination.

They have lived under foreign occupation for upwards of 60 years, it is time for them to either be annexed, or granted a state. Israel does not want the former, Palestinians want the latter.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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9/20/2011 5:05:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 11:20:57 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 6:24:28 PM, jat93 wrote:
I go to a Jewish high school. Zionism is one of the school's core values, practically as valuable to them as the religion of Judaism itself.

The two are mutually conflicting values.

No they aren't. In fact, most modern Orthodox Jews would suggest that you zionism is a necessary part of the Jewish identity. I happen to disagree, but as someone who's lived in a religious Jewish community my entire life, take my word for it... Judaism and zionism aren't conflicting values.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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9/20/2011 5:27:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 5:05:18 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 9/20/2011 11:20:57 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/19/2011 6:24:28 PM, jat93 wrote:
I go to a Jewish high school. Zionism is one of the school's core values, practically as valuable to them as the religion of Judaism itself.

The two are mutually conflicting values.

No they aren't. In fact, most modern Orthodox Jews would suggest that you zionism is a necessary part of the Jewish identity. I happen to disagree, but as someone who's lived in a religious Jewish community my entire life, take my word for it... Judaism and zionism aren't conflicting values.

If you equate Zionism with support for the modern state of Israel then yes they are, scripture holds that the messiah is to return the Jews to Israel. If Judaism is true then Israel has to be destroyed again.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.