Total Posts:30|Showing Posts:1-30
Jump to topic:

Is the State a False Order and Security?

jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...
President of DDO
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:12:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

Yes but at least under the state they can be regulated, graded and taxed.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:14:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:12:41 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

Yes but at least under the state they can be regulated, graded and taxed.

The state can only try to regulate and tax them... Rapists aren't known to report their rapings to the state...
President of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:15:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

Imperfection. Government does not eradicate crime, it is supposed to lessen it through determent and punishment.

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

Imperfection. Government does not eradicate crime, it is supposed to lessen it through determent and punishment.

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

In a stateless society, there is nothing to account for and uphold justice. The determent is gone, and crime is easy to commit, from theft to murder....this is chaos, aka no order.

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

Because all the rest of nature is incapable of calculated and intelligent, conscious evil.

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

It seems like you don't understand a single shred of what goes on around you.

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

Anarchy (pure anarchy, not the variations), since that's what you're pushing, is indeed disorder, anyone who says other wise is either A. an idiot or B. an idiot.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:17:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The State doesn't claim to have the ability to prevent with 100% efficiency any of those, but it does lower cases of them. We see it all the time with things the state does.

Heck, even for the bad rap that prohibition got, it still greatly lowered the amount of alcohol consumption in the US (though it had a big long list of un-intended side effects).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:18:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:15:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

Imperfection. Government does not eradicate crime, it is supposed to lessen it through determent and punishment.

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

Imperfection. Government does not eradicate crime, it is supposed to lessen it through determent and punishment.

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

In a stateless society, there is nothing to account for and uphold justice. The determent is gone, and crime is easy to commit, from theft to murder....this is chaos, aka no order.

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

Because all the rest of nature is incapable of calculated and intelligent, conscious evil.

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

It seems like you don't understand a single shred of what goes on around you.

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

Anarchy (pure anarchy, not the variations), since that's what you're pushing, is indeed disorder, anyone who says other wise is either A. an idiot or B. an idiot.

You seem to think that order comes from the state... However, the state is filled with people capable of conscious evil...

You see, the state is just people... a Human Creation... And, if the state upholds justice in a statist society... People would uphold justice in a STATELESS society... They are the same thing....
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:18:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Somalia is a beakon of order and civility, right?

In a stateless society, individuals will naturally attempt to rise to power and force their will on others at the point of a gun.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:19:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:17:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The State doesn't claim to have the ability to prevent with 100% efficiency any of those, but it does lower cases of them. We see it all the time with things the state does.

Heck, even for the bad rap that prohibition got, it still greatly lowered the amount of alcohol consumption in the US (though it had a big long list of un-intended side effects).

How do you know that the state effectively lowers the murder, rape rates?

There is no comparison to a stateless society...

If there was a social consensus, as there is on rape and murder, people would not let these things happen with or without the state...

For alchohol, there was no social consensus...
President of DDO
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:21:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:18:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Somalia is a beakon of order and civility, right?

In a stateless society, individuals will naturally attempt to rise to power and force their will on others at the point of a gun.

The state does everything by the point of Gun... And, is Somalia that much worse off than other similiar African Countries with states?

In fact, they have done quite well:

http://mises.org...
President of DDO
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:22:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The state is a group that protects and enforces group actions. No you can't stop individual rapes, murder, etc completely.. But without state protection those numbers would be far worse. A group will always take power over people. Forming a state of rights and morality is an effort to create a group of power which will protect and serve, other than attack and enslave.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:23:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:18:02 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

You seem to think that order comes from the state... However, the state is filled with people capable of conscious evil...

Ah! Red Herring! My favorite fallacy! Where did I say that the gov't is not capable of calculated and conscious evil? This phrase was a reply to the absurd comparison of anarchy in the rest of nature. You completely changed the subject that this phrase was relevant to.

You see, the state is just people... a Human Creation... And, if the state upholds justice in a statist society... People would uphold justice in a STATELESS society... They are the same thing....

Hmm, 7 billion people all upholding justice according to their own standards, versus a democratic state upholding justice according to what the majority agrees on as moral. What tough options you pose! :p
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:24:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:22:42 PM, Tiel wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The state is a group that protects and enforces group actions. No you can't stop individual rapes, murder, etc completely.. But without state protection those numbers would be far worse. A group will always take power over people. Forming a state of rights and morality is an effort to create a group of power which will protect and serve, other than attack and enslave.

Two things... First, where is this proof that rape and murder would be so much worse without a state...

Second, the state is just made up of people... who are just as good or evil as everyone else...
President of DDO
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:25:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:23:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:02 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

You seem to think that order comes from the state... However, the state is filled with people capable of conscious evil...

Ah! Red Herring! My favorite fallacy! Where did I say that the gov't is not capable of calculated and conscious evil? This phrase was a reply to the absurd comparison of anarchy in the rest of nature. You completely changed the subject that this phrase was relevant to.

You see, the state is just people... a Human Creation... And, if the state upholds justice in a statist society... People would uphold justice in a STATELESS society... They are the same thing....

Hmm, 7 billion people all upholding justice according to their own standards, versus a democratic state upholding justice according to what the majority agrees on as moral. What tough options you pose! :p

The only way you can accuse me of Red Herring is by twisting my words... which you did...

Of course, communities would still exist without any government....

You seem to be projecting all order on the state without thinking about where order comes from...
President of DDO
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:27:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:14:08 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:12:41 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

Yes but at least under the state they can be regulated, graded and taxed.

The state can only try to regulate and tax them... Rapists aren't known to report their rapings to the state...

Yeah...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:31:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:25:51 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:23:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:02 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

You seem to think that order comes from the state... However, the state is filled with people capable of conscious evil...

Ah! Red Herring! My favorite fallacy! Where did I say that the gov't is not capable of calculated and conscious evil? This phrase was a reply to the absurd comparison of anarchy in the rest of nature. You completely changed the subject that this phrase was relevant to.

You see, the state is just people... a Human Creation... And, if the state upholds justice in a statist society... People would uphold justice in a STATELESS society... They are the same thing....

Hmm, 7 billion people all upholding justice according to their own standards, versus a democratic state upholding justice according to what the majority agrees on as moral. What tough options you pose! :p

The only way you can accuse me of Red Herring is by twisting my words... which you did...

I was merely unknotting what you twisted. I explained to you why your statement was a red herring, but you seem not to show a care to explain how my comment twisted anything. You proclaim utter garbage, end with three dots, and then honestly believe that is sufficient argumentation.

Of course, communities would still exist without any government....

Explanation?

You seem to be projecting all order on the state without thinking about where order comes from...

Explanation?

3 empty and vacuous retorts. Please provide me with something better to work with than this.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:32:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The state provides structured, widely known disincentives against certain actions. When that apparatus disappears people know about it, and tend to respond accordingly. For example, the Canadian police force went on strike years ago and it was met with massive looting. Somalia has no government unless you count some sort of mobocracy, but not in the traditional sense.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:34:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:31:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:25:51 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:23:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:02 PM, jimtimmy wrote:

You seem to think that order comes from the state... However, the state is filled with people capable of conscious evil...

Ah! Red Herring! My favorite fallacy! Where did I say that the gov't is not capable of calculated and conscious evil? This phrase was a reply to the absurd comparison of anarchy in the rest of nature. You completely changed the subject that this phrase was relevant to.

You see, the state is just people... a Human Creation... And, if the state upholds justice in a statist society... People would uphold justice in a STATELESS society... They are the same thing....

Hmm, 7 billion people all upholding justice according to their own standards, versus a democratic state upholding justice according to what the majority agrees on as moral. What tough options you pose! :p

The only way you can accuse me of Red Herring is by twisting my words... which you did...

I was merely unknotting what you twisted. I explained to you why your statement was a red herring, but you seem not to show a care to explain how my comment twisted anything. You proclaim utter garbage, end with three dots, and then honestly believe that is sufficient argumentation.

Of course, communities would still exist without any government....

Explanation?

You seem to be projecting all order on the state without thinking about where order comes from...

Explanation?

3 empty and vacuous retorts. Please provide me with something better to work with than this.

You do know communities existed before the state. It is not as if everyone was just wondering around by themselves until the state came in and brought them all together...

And, it was a red herring because I never said that you thought the state was not capable of evil... I was just pointing out that the state was filled with evil people as well...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:34:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:19:34 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:17:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The State doesn't claim to have the ability to prevent with 100% efficiency any of those, but it does lower cases of them. We see it all the time with things the state does.

Heck, even for the bad rap that prohibition got, it still greatly lowered the amount of alcohol consumption in the US (though it had a big long list of un-intended side effects).

How do you know that the state effectively lowers the murder, rape rates?

I'm not killing people because of the punishment, so I know that it is preventing at least a few murders.


There is no comparison to a stateless society...

If there was a social consensus, as there is on rape and murder, people would not let these things happen with or without the state...

Not quite. While there are community watches and volunteer groups that help, they are not adequate on their own to prevent issues.


For alchohol, there was no social consensus...

Not an absolute consensus, but then, neither is there an absolute consensus on murder. But there was a consensus (as in majority of the people).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:35:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:32:13 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The state provides structured, widely known disincentives against certain actions. When that apparatus disappears people know about it, and tend to respond accordingly. For example, the Canadian police force went on strike years ago and it was met with massive looting. Somalia has no government unless you count some sort of mobocracy, but not in the traditional sense.

Ya, and Somalia has done well compared to comparable African Countries...

http://mises.org...

Looting is only a short term reaction to TEMPORARY STATELESSNESS...

This would not be a major issue in a stateless society...
President of DDO
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:38:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:34:46 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:19:34 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:17:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:08:25 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
I was talking to a friend about the state. He said that we need a state to control things like rape, murder, and robbery.

But, as you'll notice, we still have rape, murder, and robbery with a state...

The state does not have the ability to stop these things...

And, in a stateless society, it is not as if there would be no order...

All the rest of nature has an order WITHOUT a state...

It seems like we look at the relative order in nature and give the state credit for that....

I'm not advocating abolition of the state... But, I don't think that anarchy would be... anarchy...

The State doesn't claim to have the ability to prevent with 100% efficiency any of those, but it does lower cases of them. We see it all the time with things the state does.

Heck, even for the bad rap that prohibition got, it still greatly lowered the amount of alcohol consumption in the US (though it had a big long list of un-intended side effects).

How do you know that the state effectively lowers the murder, rape rates?

I'm not killing people because of the punishment, so I know that it is preventing at least a few murders.


There is no comparison to a stateless society...

If there was a social consensus, as there is on rape and murder, people would not let these things happen with or without the state...

Not quite. While there are community watches and volunteer groups that help, they are not adequate on their own to prevent issues.


For alchohol, there was no social consensus...

Not an absolute consensus, but then, neither is there an absolute consensus on murder. But there was a consensus (as in majority of the people).

In a stateless society, there would be much more than community watches and volunteer groups...

When over 90% of the population is against something, that thing will still be enforced by people...
President of DDO
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:42:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:35:59 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:32:13 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The state provides structured, widely known disincentives against certain actions. When that apparatus disappears people know about it, and tend to respond accordingly. For example, the Canadian police force went on strike years ago and it was met with massive looting. Somalia has no government unless you count some sort of mobocracy, but not in the traditional sense.

Ya, and Somalia has done well compared to comparable African Countries...

http://mises.org...


Looting is only a short term reaction to TEMPORARY STATELESSNESS...

This would not be a major issue in a stateless society...

Great. Maybe now we can say impoverished anarchic, third-world pirates > Living under a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Neither are remotely appealing options.

Yeah, and then everyone's going to hold hands and sing kumbaya because people can be consistently counted on to do what's in the best interest of the group naturally.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:48:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:42:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:35:59 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:32:13 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The state provides structured, widely known disincentives against certain actions. When that apparatus disappears people know about it, and tend to respond accordingly. For example, the Canadian police force went on strike years ago and it was met with massive looting. Somalia has no government unless you count some sort of mobocracy, but not in the traditional sense.

Ya, and Somalia has done well compared to comparable African Countries...

http://mises.org...


Looting is only a short term reaction to TEMPORARY STATELESSNESS...

This would not be a major issue in a stateless society...

Great. Maybe now we can say impoverished anarchic, third-world pirates > Living under a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Neither are remotely appealing options.

Yeah, and then everyone's going to hold hands and sing kumbaya because people can be consistently counted on to do what's in the best interest of the group naturally.

No, we'll all sing kumbaya because the government is really some perfect, omnipotent entity that can eliminate all societal ills by simply passing a law...

Seriously though, I love how everyone was making Somalia out to be the Anarchy Boogeyman.... Until, it was shown that they have done better than the statist African societies...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:52:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Somalia is a beakon of order and civility, right?

In a stateless society, individuals will naturally attempt to rise to power and force their will on others at the point of a gun.

The state does everything by the point of Gun... And, is Somalia that much worse off than other similiar African Countries with states?

No the state doesn't. There is no gun pointed at me know, there is none at tax time, there is none period.



In fact, they have done quite well:

http://mises.org...

From your gloriously bias article (A mises article on anarchy, I wonder what side it is going to take?), "international aid groups are currently working in Somalia, and they could be partially responsible for the improvements illustrated in the chart."

http://www.emro.who.int...

After 20 years of state-free living, they still have 47% unemployment, the majority of the population are minors (44% are under 15, and I'm betting at least 6% are between 15-18).

Literacy is still abismal, when the state left, it was 24%, now it is 25%, with only 7% of kids going to school. Most of the life expectancy stuff is due to the humanitarian efforts, doing what they can to vaccinate people and make sure they have access to basic healthcare. That is not the market doing that, that is the compassion of "government lovers."

Currently (or should we say "still") there is a 13.5% chance that a baby will not live to see their 5th birthday.

yay anarchy!
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 3:55:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:48:19 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:42:12 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:35:59 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:32:13 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
The state provides structured, widely known disincentives against certain actions. When that apparatus disappears people know about it, and tend to respond accordingly. For example, the Canadian police force went on strike years ago and it was met with massive looting. Somalia has no government unless you count some sort of mobocracy, but not in the traditional sense.

Ya, and Somalia has done well compared to comparable African Countries...

http://mises.org...


Looting is only a short term reaction to TEMPORARY STATELESSNESS...

This would not be a major issue in a stateless society...

Great. Maybe now we can say impoverished anarchic, third-world pirates > Living under a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Neither are remotely appealing options.

Yeah, and then everyone's going to hold hands and sing kumbaya because people can be consistently counted on to do what's in the best interest of the group naturally.


No, we'll all sing kumbaya because the government is really some perfect, omnipotent entity that can eliminate all societal ills by simply passing a law...



Seriously though, I love how everyone was making Somalia out to be the Anarchy Boogeyman.... Until, it was shown that they have done better than the statist African societies...

I've never claimed governments were perfect, but you're yet to cite a good example of anarchy being utilized on a large scale with positive results. I can cite any number of western governments that, while not perfect, certainly beat the rioters and Somalias of the world.

Nobody is defending statist dictatorships either. It's like the fat kid beating the cripple in a 100 meter dash - citing those examples doesn't legitimatize the philosophy. With westernized democracies you've got relative success on a large scale proven time and time again. I'm surprised a conservative with go for such an idealistic theory.
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:00:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 3:52:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Somalia is a beakon of order and civility, right?

In a stateless society, individuals will naturally attempt to rise to power and force their will on others at the point of a gun.

The state does everything by the point of Gun... And, is Somalia that much worse off than other similiar African Countries with states?

No the state doesn't. There is no gun pointed at me know, there is none at tax time, there is none period.



In fact, they have done quite well:

http://mises.org...

From your gloriously bias article (A mises article on anarchy, I wonder what side it is going to take?), "international aid groups are currently working in Somalia, and they could be partially responsible for the improvements illustrated in the chart."

http://www.emro.who.int...

After 20 years of state-free living, they still have 47% unemployment, the majority of the population are minors (44% are under 15, and I'm betting at least 6% are between 15-18).

Literacy is still abismal, when the state left, it was 24%, now it is 25%, with only 7% of kids going to school. Most of the life expectancy stuff is due to the humanitarian efforts, doing what they can to vaccinate people and make sure they have access to basic healthcare. That is not the market doing that, that is the compassion of "government lovers."

Currently (or should we say "still") there is a 13.5% chance that a baby will not live to see their 5th birthday.

yay anarchy!

To the guy who accused me of Red Herring Earlier... Look ar Ore's last comment to see what a real red herring is (and, as a bonus, you can see a very nice Ad Hominem on a Mises article that is actually based on an article from the secret Anarchists at the BBC)...

How do things in the (relatively) stateless Somalia compare to things in the Statist African Societies that are comparable?

Citing stats to show Somalia is doing poorly is pointless... You need to compare it to something...
President of DDO
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:04:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The state is a group that protects and enforces group actions. No you can't stop individual rapes, murder, etc completely.. But without state protection those numbers would be far worse. A group will always take power over people. Forming a state of rights and morality is an effort to create a group of power which will protect and serve, other than attack and enslave. A group will always naturally rise to power, it is human nature. What you want that group to be is the important part of the equation.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."
jimtimmy
Posts: 3,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:07:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:04:11 PM, Tiel wrote:
The state is a group that protects and enforces group actions. No you can't stop individual rapes, murder, etc completely.. But without state protection those numbers would be far worse. A group will always take power over people. Forming a state of rights and morality is an effort to create a group of power which will protect and serve, other than attack and enslave. A group will always naturally rise to power, it is human nature. What you want that group to be is the important part of the equation.

All of these points have already been addressed...
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:08:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:00:01 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:52:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:21:24 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 3:18:25 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Somalia is a beakon of order and civility, right?

In a stateless society, individuals will naturally attempt to rise to power and force their will on others at the point of a gun.

The state does everything by the point of Gun... And, is Somalia that much worse off than other similiar African Countries with states?

No the state doesn't. There is no gun pointed at me know, there is none at tax time, there is none period.



In fact, they have done quite well:

http://mises.org...

From your gloriously bias article (A mises article on anarchy, I wonder what side it is going to take?), "international aid groups are currently working in Somalia, and they could be partially responsible for the improvements illustrated in the chart."

http://www.emro.who.int...

After 20 years of state-free living, they still have 47% unemployment, the majority of the population are minors (44% are under 15, and I'm betting at least 6% are between 15-18).

Literacy is still abismal, when the state left, it was 24%, now it is 25%, with only 7% of kids going to school. Most of the life expectancy stuff is due to the humanitarian efforts, doing what they can to vaccinate people and make sure they have access to basic healthcare. That is not the market doing that, that is the compassion of "government lovers."

Currently (or should we say "still") there is a 13.5% chance that a baby will not live to see their 5th birthday.

yay anarchy!

To the guy who accused me of Red Herring Earlier... Look ar Ore's last comment to see what a real red herring is (and, as a bonus, you can see a very nice Ad Hominem on a Mises article that is actually based on an article from the secret Anarchists at the BBC)...

How do things in the (relatively) stateless Somalia compare to things in the Statist African Societies that are comparable?

Citing stats to show Somalia is doing poorly is pointless... You need to compare it to something...

It's called comparing it to Somalia 1991, when the state went down. It's made little to no progress.

Should we compare to Egypt? The numbers on WHO represent 2008, when they still had a roaring dictator. How about Morrocco, or Sudan, or Tunisia, or Djibouti (Somalia's northern neighbor)? There are some African countries to compare to.

http://www.emro.who.int...
http://www.emro.who.int...
http://www.emro.who.int...
http://www.emro.who.int...
http://www.emro.who.int...
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Tiel
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/20/2011 4:47:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/20/2011 4:07:20 PM, jimtimmy wrote:
At 9/20/2011 4:04:11 PM, Tiel wrote:
The state is a group that protects and enforces group actions. No you can't stop individual rapes, murder, etc completely.. But without state protection those numbers would be far worse. A group will always take power over people. Forming a state of rights and morality is an effort to create a group of power which will protect and serve, other than attack and enslave. A group will always naturally rise to power, it is human nature. What you want that group to be is the important part of the equation.

All of these points have already been addressed...

No, I do not agree, but you are entitled to your opinion. A state is not a false sense of order and security. It has a practical purpose and it serves that purpose.
"Only the inner force of curiosity and wonder about the unknown, or an outer force upon your free will, can brake the shackles of your current perception."